TTC: Streetcar Network

[drum118]

Queen’s Park needs to invest several billion dollars into modernizing the streetcar network. The TTC and City and broke. Drawing blood from a stone will bare no fruit.

The streetcar network is as important as any subway line, and critical for the vitality of our regional and national, so I don’t see why this should be an issue for QP. Just drop several billion dollars into the network and get the job done.

Not going to happen with Ford in charge since Ford hates streetcars in the first place

The City is at fault since they have under fund TTC for decades.

Only have to look at where QQE is considering it was supposed to be in operation 2014. May see it by 2030 considering it was approved in 2010.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC is behind the world when it comes to switches. No issues in Europe on this year trip nor NA systems. No idea why TTC not installing the correct switches for the new fleet unless money, but at what cost?

don't forget everywhere else has signals that show the driver that the switch is set in the curet way the TTC can't install ones like that without getting approval from the city as it would take a lot more work than the current setup is as it would probably mean that they would have to tear up al, of the streetcars routes to be able to wire the switches to transit control.

 

[Amare]

Queen’s Park needs to invest several billion dollars into modernizing the streetcar network. The TTC and City and broke. Drawing blood from a stone will bare no fruit.

The streetcar network is as important as any subway line, and critical for the vitality of our regional and national, so I don’t see why this should be an issue for QP. Just drop several billion dollars into the network and get the job done.

Queen's Park doesnt need to invest a dime to rectify most of streetcar operational issues that the TTC has.

It's the idiotic leadership at the TTC that needs to change, so there can be a cultural mindset shift to get rid of the idiotic policies that cripple streetcar operations. It's like with each decade that passes, streetcar operations gets slower and slower.

 

[reaperexpress]

don't forget everywhere else has signals that show the driver that the switch is set in the curet way the TTC can't install ones like that without getting approval from the city as it would take a lot more work than the current setup is as it would probably mean that they would have to tear up al, of the streetcars routes to be able to wire the switches to transit control.

Yes, switch indication signals and streetcar-to-switch communications are some of the 3 essential items required for streetcars to safely pass through switches at speed:

1: Earlier communication to switches. Currently the switch's radio receiver is located immediately before the switch. But to proceed at speed, streetcars would need to request their turns far enough in advance for the switch to completely throw and lock before the point where the streetcar would need to stop braking. Simply relocating the current receivers wouldn't work because it wouldn't be able to keep track of multiple streetcars in the detection area. A new system is required, and the TTC has previously stated that they are interested in installing a modern switch communication system.
2: Switch Indication Signals. In order for operators to be able to tell that item 1 is complete well before they can see the switch itself, there needs to be a signal near the switch indicating that it is correctly set in a particular direction.
3: Dual-leaf switches. As we know, single-leaf switches are more prone to derailment than dual leaf switches. They are also more expensive than dual-leaf switches because nobody uses them anymore so the TTC needs to get them custom made. For these reasons, the TTC has stated that they intend to adopt dual-leaf switches, but until a new standard is determined for items 1 and 2, they have no standard with which to install them on the mainline. In yards, where switches are centrally controlled and speeds are limited to 10 km/h, most switches are already dual-leaf. There is no need for streetcar-to-switch communciation since the switches are centrally controlled, and the switches include lights to show which direction they are thrown.

The above info on switch technology is from a TTC report which used to be on the TTC website, but I can't find anymore. The assertion that most switches in yards are dual-leaf is based on my own observations.

 

[smallspy]

No idea why TTC not installing the correct switches for the new fleet unless money, but at what cost?

Once again.....there is nothing wrong with the switches that the TTC uses. They are perfectly fine, and are in fact used in many other cities around the world.

The issue is with the switch activation and locking system. That is independent of the actual switch hardware.

3: Dual-leaf switches. As we know, single-leaf switches are more prone to derailment than dual leaf switches. They are also more expensive than dual-leaf switches because nobody uses them anymore so the TTC needs to get them custom made. For these reasons, the TTC has stated that they intend to adopt dual-leaf switches, but until a new standard is determined for items 1 and 2, they have no standard with which to install them on the mainline. In yards, where switches are centrally controlled and speeds are limited to 10 km/h, most switches are already dual-leaf. There is no need for streetcar-to-switch communciation since the switches are centrally controlled, and the switches include lights to show which direction they are thrown.

The above info on switch technology is from a TTC report which used to be on the TTC website, but I can't find anymore. The assertion that most switches in yards are dual-leaf is based on my own observations.

I have my doubts that this part was from the same report, as it frankly is not true. When the equipment is designed to use it, there is nothing wrong with single-point switches. If there were, wouldn't other cities be in a rush to replace them? (Hint: they're not.)

For the record, the only location on the legacy system that uses dual-point switches is within Leslie. The other carbarns are all configured with single-point switches.

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

They even have a tram simulator to show how to use track switches...

How they do it in Melbourne...

In Venice...

In Frankfurt...

 

[W. K. Lis]

North Terrace and King William Road Intersection Works​

When they have the funds to work on track intersections FAST...

This was part of the tram extension in Adelaide, Australia. Not years like in Toronto, Canada, but days.

---

The new tram extension is actually a RETURN of tram tracks. See link.

King William Street - North Terrace intersection, Adelaide 1908 and 2018. The return of the trams.​

Laying tracks is the easy bit. It's the services underneath that cause the delays. I mean it's not like they are ripping up Australia's oldest street or anything.

There is an intersection, I think it's Hunter and George St, that was ripped up Friday night then had all the work done underneath, then is filled over and operational for Monday morning. There are example like this all along the track. It's going through the busiest part of Sydney, the CBD and ANZAC Parade... That's crazy.

 

[reaperexpress]

Once again.....there is nothing wrong with the switches that the TTC uses. They are perfectly fine, and are in fact used in many other cities around the world.

The issue is with the switch activation and locking system. That is independent of the actual switch hardware.

One thing the report definitely said is that they would save money by adopting dual-point switches because they are cheaper and easier to procure.

I have my doubts that this part was from the same report, as it frankly is not true. When the equipment is designed to use it, there is nothing wrong with single-point switches. If there were, wouldn't other cities be in a rush to replace them? (Hint: they're not.)

Like I said, I cant find that report anymore so I'm going from memory. It's possible they said something along the lines of "the current switches are prone to derailments" and I may have incorrectly associated that with all single-point switches.

For the record, the only location on the legacy system that uses dual-point switches is within Leslie. The other carbarns are all configured with single-point switches.

Oh looking closely on streetview I see that now. From a distance I thought the new switches in barns were dual-point switches like the ones in Leslie given how the plate covering the mechanism appears to cover the full width between the tracks, unlike mainline switches where the plate is only around the track which has the point.

 

[T3G]

don't forget everywhere else has signals that show the driver that the switch is set in the curet way the TTC can't install ones like that without getting approval from the city as it would take a lot more work than the current setup is as it would probably mean that they would have to tear up al, of the streetcars routes to be able to wire the switches to transit control.

Yes, but if they want to have any kind of speedy service, they're going to have to do it sooner or later. The only choice they have is when to do it... or, a secret alternative option: defer, defer, then forget when the next renewal comes up, a Toronto specialty.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

It’s ridiculous that the TTC keeps on applying band-aids to a problem that they know can and should be fixed. It’s as if the TTC is chickened out to dealing with the issue hence applying system wide operational slow orders system wide. They clearly have lost the institutional knowledge that used to exist.

I hate to say it but I fear we are witnessing the decline of the streetcar system with numerous operational slow orders slapped on due to hesitance to address problems and just carry on as status quo. Thus continuing the self inflected ineptitude. This timidness lands squarely at whoever is in charge of streetcar operations.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It’s ridiculous that the TTC keeps on applying band-aids to a problem that they know can and should be fixed. It’s as if the TTC is chickened out to dealing with the issue hence applying system wide operational slow orders system wide. They clearly have lost the institutional knowledge that used to exist.

I hate to say it but I fear we are witnessing the decline of the streetcar system with numerous operational slow orders slapped on due to hesitance to address problems and just carry on as status quo. Thus continuing the self inflected ineptitude. This timidness lands squarely at whoever is in charge of streetcar operations.

As long as we have politicians AND bureaucrats addicted to the automobile, and who do not use public transit, they will continue to give the lowest priority to public transit. They will cut every improvement needed, because of "budget restraints".

 

[smallspy]

One thing the report definitely said is that they would save money by adopting dual-point switches because they are cheaper and easier to procure.

That's a possibility, I'll concede. I don't know what pricing looks like.

Like I said, I cant find that report anymore so I'm going from memory. It's possible they said something along the lines of "the current switches are prone to derailments" and I may have incorrectly associated that with all single-point switches.

But the problem is that they aren't any more prone than any other switch. But again - it also requires your equipment to be built for it. And in Toronto, the equipment has been built for it.

It's not a situation such as Boston where they just assumed that the equipment would work, but in fact did not.

Oh looking closely on streetview I see that now. From a distance I thought the new switches in barns were dual-point switches like the ones in Leslie given how the plate covering the mechanism appears to cover the full width between the tracks, unlike mainline switches where the plate is only around the track which has the point.

The plate is the cover for the switch motor enclosure, and is usually only located at the facing points, not trailing.

On previous orders of trackwork, the enclosure was about 2 feet long - so about half-way across the gauge. It's possible that with the newest order that they've spec'd a larger enclosure.

Dan

 

[turbanplanner]

Not going to happen with Ford in charge since Ford hates streetcars in the first place

The City is at fault since they have under fund TTC for decades.

Only have to look at where QQE is considering it was supposed to be in operation 2014. May see it by 2030 considering it was approved in 2010.

Pretty much every bit of the network is being rebuilt over the past few years?

 

[turbanplanner]

As long as we have politicians AND bureaucrats addicted to the automobile, and who do not use public transit, they will continue to give the lowest priority to public transit. They will cut every improvement needed, because of "budget restraints".

I don't think that's a fair take. We have the best bus network in the continent, GO is upgrading to the best signaling system in the world, and acquiring/rebuilding several rail lines. We're also planning the biggest transit expansion in the continent, and are spending tens of billions on LRT's in the GTHA.

 

[Coruscanti Cognoscente]

I don't think that's a fair take. We have the best bus network in the continent, GO is upgrading to the best signaling system in the world, and acquiring/rebuilding several rail lines. We're also planning the biggest transit expansion in the continent, and are spending tens of billions on LRT's in the GTHA.

Indeed I'd argue the politicians do not appear to be drivers considering the ludicrously low speed limits they've implemented on some streets (e.g. Bloor St).