News   Dec 20, 2024
UrbanToronto Year-End Poll: Vote on the Best Buildings of 2024, presented by Sapphire Balconies
 1.1K     5 
News   Dec 20, 2024
UrbanToronto's Social Media Presence Skyrocketed in 2024
 861     2 
News   Dec 20, 2024
Mattamy Homes Records A Year of Accomplishments
 1.7K     0 

TTC: Streetcar Network

Richard White said:
If there is a loophole, a union rep at ATU 113 will find it. Even operators who are fired sometimes get rehired
Click to expand...
Well this conversation seems to pretty much explains everything.

As incentives drive behaviour and the main TTC union has roughly zero incentive to respond to customer feedback or increase satisfaction.

And there's no feasible way for the union to ever be punished, even if they are the direct cause for decreasing satisfaction. At least not in the Toronto/Ontario/Canadian political/legal system.

So the result is unsurprising.

It probably will never be so bad that investing billions into the TTC will result in less than nothing, which happened in the most extreme cases of systemic problems, but it certainly seems likely that the return could be negative. i.e. a billion invested could only yield hundreds of millions in value to the city.
 
Last edited:
MichaelZ said:
And there's no feasible way for the union to ever be punished, even if they are the direct cause for decreasing satisfaction. At least not in the Toronto/Ontario/Canadian political/legal system.
Click to expand...

This bit is not entirely accurate; for better or worse. The TTC has contracted out vehicle cleaning, where this used to be done by in-house union workers; and Metrolinx does contract out its train staffing; though we'd have to ask @smallspy because I don't remember whether it was always CN/CP prior to it being Alstom or if there was a period of in-house employment.

Regardless; one can bust down problematic behaviors; however, it does take a certain amount of fortitude; and truthfully, as can be seen w/GO's current labour shortages, such decisios often carry consequences all their own.

MichaelZ said:
It probably will never be so bad that investing billions into the TTC will result in less than nothing, which happened in the most extreme cases of systemic problems, but it certainly seems likely that the return could be negative. i.e. a billion invested could only yield hundreds of millions in value to the city.
Click to expand...

This is a very confusing statement. There are, for simplicity's sake, two kinds of investments, capital and operating, which we must distinguish between.

On the capital side, its difficult to see why a union would be a serious obstacle to effective purchases.

But even on the operating side, the TTC has partially implemented one-person train operation over the objection of the union.

Lets be clear, that will be expanded, over the objection of the union.

Its a question of prioritizing those things you need to, understanding the consequences, planning properly and pushing forward, where appropriate.
 
Northern Light said:
This bit is not entirely accurate; for better or worse. The TTC has contracted out vehicle cleaning, where this used to be done by in-house union workers; and Metrolinx does contract out its train staffing; though we'd have to ask @smallspy because I don't remember whether it was always CN/CP prior to it being Alstom or if there was a period of in-house employment.

Regardless; one can bust down problematic behaviors; however, it does take a certain amount of fortitude; and truthfully, as can be seen w/GO's current labour shortages, such decisios often carry consequences all their own.



This is a very confusing statement. There are, for simplicity's sake, two kinds of investments, capital and operating, which we must distinguish between.

On the capital side, its difficult to see why a union would be a serious obstacle to effective purchases.

But even on the operating side, the TTC has partially implemented one-person train operation over the objection of the union.

Lets be clear, that will be expanded, over the objection of the union.

Its a question of prioritizing those things you need to, understanding the consequences, planning properly and pushing forward, where appropriate.
Click to expand...
The TTC is not the only agency to have this problem. Have you seen that in York region the Viva buses run in two's? 20min frequency becomes 40-50min because two buses come at the same time and come at the same time and leave at the same time.

I think cleanliness has gotten better if anything.
 
MichaelZ said:
asible way for the union to ever be punished, even if they are the direct cause for decreasing satisfaction. At least not in the Toronto/Onta
Click to expand...
Northern Light said:
This bit is not entirely accurate; for better or worse. The TTC has contracted out vehicle cleaning, where this used to be done by in-house union workers; and Metrolinx does contract out its train staffing; though we'd have to ask @smallspy because I don't remember whether it was always CN/CP prior to it being Alstom or if there was a period of in-house employment.

Regardless; one can bust down problematic behaviors; however, it does take a certain amount of fortitude; and truthfully, as can be seen w/GO's current labour shortages, such decisios often carry consequences all their own.



This is a very confusing statement. There are, for simplicity's sake, two kinds of investments, capital and operating, which we must distinguish between.

On the capital side, its difficult to see why a union would be a serious obstacle to effective purchases.

But even on the operating side, the TTC has partially implemented one-person train operation over the objection of the union.

Lets be clear, that will be expanded, over the objection of the union.

Its a question of prioritizing those things you need to, understanding the consequences, planning properly and pushing forward, where appropriate.
Click to expand...
That's true yet there's also the cost of political and bureaucratic battles to be factored in. If it takes 100 senior folks spending half their year to ram through a decision, that's easily 250K x 100 x 0.5 in fully loaded salaries alone. Or $12.5 million for one decision.

And as you alluded to, such a course of action may cause bitter feelings and resentment, which would lead to subtle foot-dragging, too small individually to be recorded, but nonetheless with a large cumulative effect that further lowers efficiency.

In such cases it seems entirely possible for a negative return on investment to occur, even with capital. There's of course positive externalities, that don't appear on the balance sheet, from transit, but this may also be negated by an increase in cynicism and disobedience among frontline employees, which increases the cost of the next decision.

There's also the case of overly complex and inflated requirements, arising from many sources but possibly including the management-union dynamic, turning into incredibly expensive capital expenditures. Such as oversizing of underground stations.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
So why bother posting it? It's a pice of junk that someone made to get clicks on website, it's not actual news at all.
Click to expand...
By that standard, newspapers wouldn't contain editorial cartoons - but nobody complains that. Junk - it was very well done - at first glance it looked indistinguishable from the 3 other real ones on the same pole.

When the diversions become so farcical that I find someone has stuck up sign parodies at my local streetcar stop I think it's noteworthy. I'm not sure which website you think they were getting clicks.

Is it trolling - of course it's trolling! As is almost every editorial cartoon ever published. I'm not sure why you are being so offended by hearing about how people are reacting.

I'm not sure how whether someone else has posted something on another forum somewhere has any relevance!
 
Just an update on the Carlton/Church closure provided by the City:
According to Toronto Hydro, their subcontractor anticipates completing the chamber work within four weeks. This will be followed by the City’s contractor completing the track replacement work. At this point, the end date of the project is expected to be early-November.
Click to expand...
 
Reecemartin said:
Toronto is famous for keeping its streetcars when cities around the world ripped theirs out, but that has made us complacent. Our network needs some major fixes, and in this video I explore some solutions. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/DmSj162rSoc
Click to expand...

A lot of good stuff there; I would disagree on the relative importance of route naming; and would oppose removing switches that not only help with diversions, but also limit deadhead times making it faster to load on/off service.

I think if I were to look at the takeaways from the video with which I strongly agree:

1) Fewer stops
2) Protected access for streetcars exiting stations
3) Better service management
4) Dual-point Switches
5) Level Boarding wherever practical (St. Clair, Spadina, Habourfront, Fleet, and I would argue for King)
6) Reducing left-hand turn conflicts through a mix of enforcement of existing rules, changing the style of left-turns, adding left-turn signals in some cases, and physically restricting left turns at most non-signalized intersections on streetcar routes, if possible (raised curb between tracks)
7) Upgraded transit stops, that pro-forma, feature LCD screens with route maps, next vehicle arrivals, diversions/service alerts; and where practical additional features such as canopy/shelter, seating etc.
 
Last edited:
The Toronto Hydro vault at Church & Carleton seems to have been adjusted and the base layer of concrete poured for the tracks. The signage says it will re-open on 22 October; it might.
IMG_1079[1].JPG
 
DSC said:
The Toronto Hydro vault at Church & Carleton seems to have been adjusted and the base layer of concrete poured for the tracks. The signage says it will re-open on 22 October; it might.
View attachment 432761
Click to expand...

What a unique placement for protective fencing! Sure, a bit more of a trip hazard than usual, but no longer impairs photography. Innovation at work!
 
loc8035.jpg


I was certain this vehicle had knocked over the fencing when I came here to post, but now that I see it was already down I'm less certain what to make of this. The fact that the left wheels look to not be on solid ground still makes me think the vehicle has ended up somewhere it shouldn't be.

EDIT: On further inspection I think that vehicle in the NB lane on Church is a reversing tow truck, so they're probably getting read to extract.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top