TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[nfitz]

West of Welbeck: 37m : 22m
East of Senlac: 29m : 23m
West of Senlac: 37m : 23m
East of Easton: 34m : 23m

I thought it was shown as 36 metres in the official plan ... or was it 30 metres. Either way, given the tail tracks go to west of Welbeck, and the portal would have to be west of Senlac, it seems there's enough room to expropriate along there.

I hardly can believe that tail tracks are 970 m long

That would be all the way from Yonge to Senlac. I didn't say they went to Senlac. I said they went most of the way to Senlac.

The tail tracks may be 400 or 500 m long, that's still more than 1 km from the West Don bridge (located 1,600 m west of Yonge).

?? Why are you saying this? It's no secret how far the tail tracks go. The Welbeck emergency exit at the end of the tail tracks is on the north side of Sheppard between Welbeck and Senlac. 800 metres from Yonge Street.

 

[noctis]

Your numbers don't work. Stintz is estimating that it will cost $500 mil/km to extend Sheppard 2 km to Victoria Park station. Yet by your numbers there's 6.9 km to go after for $1.7 billion at only $245 million/km?

Also there's nothing in your $ to upgrade or do anything to the SRT. What do we do when it reaches the end of it's life around 2018 or so ... simply tell people to walk? It's not like those currently using it would find the Sheppard subway to North York useful.

Whoa, easy there dude...no need to hit me on the head so hard...I am just putting a plan out there and like I said, the numbers are just estimates, I didn't say it will exactly work...It's just that Mr. Ford wants subways so bad, and this seems to be a logical solution imo. Personally, I don't like the Sheppard extension part, but who am I to say anything?

 

[Rainforest]

?? Why are you saying this? It's no secret how far the tail tracks go. The Welbeck emergency exit[/URL] at the end of the tail tracks is on the north side of Sheppard between Welbeck and Senlac. 800 metres from Yonge Street.

OK, I did not know that the tracks extend that far west of Yonge. But even if so, the bridge is 1,600 m west of Yonge. Perhaps the tracks would emerge before the bridge, that's still 600 - 700 m of tunnel, and something to cross West Don: either a separate bridge or widening the existing bridge.

Do you think my estimate of $300 million for that is too high? Well, let's put $200 million for that. The rest of components are unchanged: $185 million from West Don to Downsview, $25 million for the terminal, $670 million for conversion, $1.1 billion for the LRT east of Don Mills. The total is close to $2.2 billion.

 

[unimaginative2]

The TTC's construction costs are getting so ludicrous that we're going to be as bad as New York in a few years. Munich just opened a 1.7 km two-stop underground subway extension. Cost? 180 million euros, total. And it's reasonable for it to cost four times as much to build subway in Toronto?

A further tragedy is that in all of this bizarre surface vs underground political debate, we've forgotten about the potential about fully-separated surface and elevated alignments. Many of these new suburban subways would be perfectly fine being built as elevated trains. The Sheppard subway, once it turns south from Sheppard, is running through undeveloped and industrial lands. There would certainly be no impact from an elevated rapid transit line being built. Any new developments could easily be designed around it to mitigate any visual and noise issues. The same goes for the Vaughan extension. It's ludicrous to be boring deep tunnels and digging down massive stations through virtually empty fields. At the very least, it should have been cut-and-cover. Look how much Vancouver saved on the Canada line with that approach. They built the equivalent of pretty much the entire Eglinton line, fully grade-separated, for less than $2 billion.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The TTC's construction costs are getting so ludicrous that we're going to be as bad as New York in a few years. Munich just opened a 1.7 km two-stop underground subway extension. Cost? 180 million euros, total. And it's reasonable for it to cost four times as much to build subway in Toronto?

A further tragedy is that in all of this bizarre surface vs underground political debate, we've forgotten about the potential about fully-separated surface and elevated alignments. Many of these new suburban subways would be perfectly fine being built as elevated trains. The Sheppard subway, once it turns south from Sheppard, is running through undeveloped and industrial lands. There would certainly be no impact from an elevated rapid transit line being built. Any new developments could easily be designed around it to mitigate any visual and noise issues. The same goes for the Vaughan extension. It's ludicrous to be boring deep tunnels and digging down massive stations through virtually empty fields. At the very least, it should have been cut-and-cover. Look how much Vancouver saved on the Canada line with that approach. They built the equivalent of pretty much the entire Eglinton line, fully grade-separated, for less than $2 billion.

Canadian Land is more expensive?

 

[unimaginative2]

Uh, definitely not.

Vancouver land is also more expensive than Toronto...

edit: I might also add that Vancouver's project included two complex water crossings.

 

[nfitz]

OK, I did not know that the tracks extend that far west of Yonge. But even if so, the bridge is 1,600 m west of Yonge. Perhaps the tracks would emerge before the bridge, that's still 600 - 700 m of tunnel, and something to cross West Don: either a separate bridge or widening the existing bridge.

At most it's 550 metres to the last house before the bridge. But why tunnel, just expropriate - it's all single family dwellings on a major artery. They won't be there 50 years from now anyway. Where you put the portal is an interesting question. I'm not sure how deep the tunnel is - whether you could do it before Senlac or not. The tunnel pretty much goes to where you'd start digging the station box for Senlac station.

Do you think my estimate of $300 million for that is too high? Well, let's put $200 million for that. The rest of components are unchanged: $185 million from West Don to Downsview, $25 million for the terminal, $670 million for conversion, $1.1 billion for the LRT east of Don Mills. The total is close to $2.2 billion.

I'd just go with surface LRT from Welbeck to Dowsview and expropriate. Say 3.5 km at $75 million/km .. $260 million. Maybe $300 million because of the West Don structure. $670 million for the conversion. Where's the LRT going east of Don Mills? $1.1 billion gets you to Morningside ... less that that to Scarborough Centre.

 

[Rainforest]

At most it's 550 metres to the last house before the bridge. But why tunnel, just expropriate - it's all single family dwellings on a major artery. They won't be there 50 years from now anyway. Where you put the portal is an interesting question. I'm not sure how deep the tunnel is - whether you could do it before Senlac or not. The tunnel pretty much goes to where you'd start digging the station box for Senlac station.

I'd just go with surface LRT from Welbeck to Dowsview and expropriate. Say 3.5 km at $75 million/km .. $260 million. Maybe $300 million because of the West Don structure.

Even if expropriation is possible, there will be an extra cost for the ascending tunnel section and the portal. I'd think that there are some fixed costs for tunneling, and a 200-m tunnel will cost more than 1/5 of a 1-km tunnel.

 

[rfid]

Would an LRT on Sheppard east of Don Mills/Victoria Park be more palatable if Sheppard trains continued onto the Yonge line?

The perception would change that Sheppard is less of a stub, and more of a branch off a trunk route (Yonge), similar to how New York's metro has multiple routes running over a trunk line. I'm just speculating that it may be more enticing than Finch Express, since it removes a transfer.

The trains could run as Sheppard-Yonge-University since its doubtful passengers would need to loop around. Or even just Sheppard-Yonge, terminating at Union Station.

I'm not sure if scheduling would allow such a proposal to work. If only Toronto has express tracks! What are your thoughts?

 

[dunkalunk]

I don't think there would be enough capacity on the Yonge line once the northern extension of the line was completed, although I do think interlining could work if the Sheppard subway were extended west to Spadina.

I personally would like to see Sheppard trains extended west to the new Downsview station where there would be a direct connection to the Barrie GO. If some costs could be saved by placing the subway in an open cut adjacent to in in the median of Sheppard Ave and interlining both lines to use the same platform at the new Downsview station that would be ideal, although I'm not sure how feasible this kind of operation would be, given that crossover tracks would need to be built somewhere.

Of course, unless Toronto sees a massive influx of transit dollars, I doubt very much that any sort of thing would be built in the next 30 years. The next subway that needs to be built in Toronto is the DRL.

 

[Rainforest]

Would an LRT on Sheppard east of Don Mills/Victoria Park be more palatable if Sheppard trains continued onto the Yonge line?

The perception would change that Sheppard is less of a stub, and more of a branch off a trunk route (Yonge), similar to how New York's metro has multiple routes running over a trunk line. I'm just speculating that it may be more enticing than Finch Express, since it removes a transfer.

The trains could run as Sheppard-Yonge-University since its doubtful passengers would need to loop around. Or even just Sheppard-Yonge, terminating at Union Station.

I'm not sure if scheduling would allow such a proposal to work. If only Toronto has express tracks! What are your thoughts?

Headways on Yonge will be an issue as dunkalunk noted.

Plus, it will be difficult to connect tracks in a way that allows such operation. Currently, there exists one connecting track, northbound Yonge to eastbound Sheppard, and it misses both Yonge / Sheppard platforms. There is no westbound Sheppard to southbound Yonge track. It will be very hard to fit one, and impossible to run regular service using the single connecting track for both directions.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't think there would be enough capacity on the Yonge line once the northern extension of the line was completed, although I do think interlining could work if the Sheppard subway were extended west to Spadina.

I personally would like to see Sheppard trains extended west to the new Downsview station where there would be a direct connection to the Barrie GO. If some costs could be saved by placing the subway in an open cut adjacent to in in the median of Sheppard Ave and interlining both lines to use the same platform at the new Downsview station that would be ideal, although I'm not sure how feasible this kind of operation would be, given that crossover tracks would need to be built somewhere.

Barrie line runs about 1 km west of Downsview subway station.

Interlining Sheppard trains with TYSSE towards the new GO station on Barrie line, and York U, could be possible if provisions for that were included in the TYSSE design. Adding that capability after the TYSSE is completed will be quite difficult. The existing Downsview platform is positioned N-S, the TYSSE tracks will continue north for about 200 m and then curve north-west. So, the connecting Sheppard tracks would have to join half-way between Downsview and Chesswood, and I am not sure whether safety regulations allow that.

Interlining Sheppard trains with the existing Spadina line towards downtown might be possible, if the first common station is not Downsview but Wilson. Existing tracks run mostly on surface between Downsview and Wilson, and are surrounded by quite a bit of unused land. So, the Sheppard tracks could presumably curve south-west at Wilson Hts and emerge on the sides of existing tracks before joining them. One drawback of such scheme is that Sheppard trains would miss Downsview Stn, making the transfer towards York U possible at Wilson only.

Of course, unless Toronto sees a massive influx of transit dollars, I doubt very much that any sort of thing would be built in the next 30 years. The next subway that needs to be built in Toronto is the DRL.

That's probably the case. They will get the Vic Park extension built, and then focus on other corridors.

 

[ssiguy2]

Uh, definitely not.

Vancouver land is also more expensive than Toronto...

edit: I might also add that Vancouver's project included two complex water crossings.

No kidding! The new Evergreen totally grade separated using so-called "expensive" SkyTrain tech is going to cost $1.4 billion for 11km. It is also worth noting that that INCLUDES a 1 km tunnel.
Thes "estimates" are getting truly obscene. Nott only are these prices ridiculous but they are made worse by the fact that these are suburban streets.
Vancouver's 20km Canada Line included 14km of tunnel thru the city including right downtown. It requires a tunnel above another rapid transit tunnel downtown, tunneling under False Creek, going up a very high grade, a high bridge over the mighty Fraser with a ped/bike levle underneath it, another bridge over to YVR, and another over to Richmond Centre. It required the building of 16 station with a "roughing in" of 2 future ones, a new maintenance and operational centre, and had a very tight time schedule.
All this for $2.4 billion with full Metro standards. When it was all said and done the whole project worked out to about $130 million/km.
Toronto, however, needs $1 billion for a 2km stretch of subway down a suburban street.
Even if the price tag is half that amount heads should be rolling.

 

[unimaginative2]

Just imagine how much transit we could have if our cost per km were $150 million per kilometre--still higher than the Canada Line with all its complexity and higher than many European cities. For the $8.2 billion budgeted for the Eglinton line alone, we could have:

• Eglinton from Scarborough Centre to Black Creek
• DRL from the Exhibition to Don Mills and Sheppard
• Sheppard from Don Mills to Scarborough Centre

And all of it fully grade-separated and not forced to stop at every traffic light.

People often talk about Vancouver having this transit renaissance and going through what we did in the 1970s. They're right, but the truth is that we're actually spending much more than they are on big transit investments. The difference is that we get so much less for our money.

 

[nfitz]

All this for $2.4 billion with full Metro standards.

Not sure how something with such tiny stations qualifies as "full Metro". You couldn't even get two of the new streetcars into those stations.