TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[ssiguy2]

Elevation is always more visually intrusive which is why you should only do it along current rail ROW or in the burbs but not down the middle of a unique urban enviornment.
St.Clair is a vibrant urban street while Eglinton from DM to Kennedy is an ugly commercial strip, you cannot compare the two.
Eglinton is a commercial strip and that's fine, it is as important a part of the urban fabric as is St.Clair, Bloor, or the Beaches.
Miller and the boys had this stupid idea that every street in the city could be turned into a bohemian wonderland if only it had streetcars.
ALL European cities have some form of at grade/elevated Metro, without exception. Does Miller think that Parisiens gas their cars at the back of some little cafe or everyone works as a waiter or hotal manager? Where the hell did he get these stupid ideas? Every city on the planet has streets like Eglinton or Finch or Kingston but those city's acknowledge their different uses and don't try to change the character of the streets but rather work with them. If Miller and the boys had decided to change the zoning for Eglinton over to residential......looks good on paper to serve residential areas except of course those they residents will have to drive to work as their jobs move to the suburbs.
If Toronto wants grade separated and true mass/rapid transit then it MUST start utilizing trenches, rail ROWs and elevation like the rest of the planet. Vancouver realized that early on and hence it's 70km of rapid transit expansion in the last 30 years and Toronto's 6km.

 

[GraphicMatt]

That grade separation work was already started and, as I understand it, is work that needed to be done for GO Transit either way.

The federal contribution is for 1/3 of the total Sheppard East LRT project cost. (The province was to cover the other 2/3rds.)

Hearsay theory that's not entirely verified: this past summer, the feds told Ford he wouldn't be able to transfer that money to his Sheppard Subway project unless he could confirm there would be provincial money in the same pot. This is what prompted Ford to visit McGuinty and ask him for that $650 million promised under the MOU, which is only supposed to materialize if Eglinton miraculously comes in under budget. Dalton turned him down.

The federal government has said publicly that their investment in Sheppard is secure but clearly they don't want an outcome where their money is going toward something half-assed or unpopular.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The private sector helping to build Sheppard would only really work if the street were converted to look more like Yonge St. in North York through it's entirety type density with the wide road included. On the existing Sheppard subway line it's still too suburban since the zoning laws didn't allow for more density.

A lost opportunity to build a ton of new streets with townhouses that would have benefited from rapid transit and highway access at the same time.

 

[Nick.]

Elevation is always more visually intrusive which is why you should only do it along current rail ROW or in the burbs but not down the middle of a unique urban enviornment.
St.Clair is a vibrant urban street while Eglinton from DM to Kennedy is an ugly commercial strip, you cannot compare the two.
Eglinton is a commercial strip and that's fine, it is as important a part of the urban fabric as is St.Clair, Bloor, or the Beaches.
Miller and the boys had this stupid idea that every street in the city could be turned into a bohemian wonderland if only it had streetcars.
ALL European cities have some form of at grade/elevated Metro, without exception. Does Miller think that Parisiens gas their cars at the back of some little cafe or everyone works as a waiter or hotal manager? Where the hell did he get these stupid ideas? Every city on the planet has streets like Eglinton or Finch or Kingston but those city's acknowledge their different uses and don't try to change the character of the streets but rather work with them. If Miller and the boys had decided to change the zoning for Eglinton over to residential......looks good on paper to serve residential areas except of course those they residents will have to drive to work as their jobs move to the suburbs.
If Toronto wants grade separated and true mass/rapid transit then it MUST start utilizing trenches, rail ROWs and elevation like the rest of the planet. Vancouver realized that early on and hence it's 70km of rapid transit expansion in the last 30 years and Toronto's 6km.

I really don't know why elevated transit is literally never brought up in Toronto. Well actually I do know, it's because people will bitch about how 'ugly' it is.

 

[Tulse]

I really don't know why elevated transit is literally never brought up in Toronto. Well actually I do know, it's because people will bitch about how 'ugly' it is.

And why isn't that a real consideration? "Ugly" reduces property values. "Ugly" reduces tourism. "Ugly" can increase crime. "Ugly" drives people away from areas. In other words, "ugly" has real financial impacts.

 

[Nick.]

And why isn't that a real consideration? "Ugly" reduces property values. "Ugly" reduces tourism. "Ugly" can increase crime. "Ugly" drives people away from areas. In other words, "ugly" has real financial impacts.

weird, lack of adequate transit also has those effects. bye.

 

[nfitz]

Isn't that the money being spent on grade separation? Which is mostly wasted if we don't build surface LRT through Agincourt.

Good question - but the grade separation contract isn't that big; the amount that Dufferin Construction is receiving from TTC for that project is only $28,673,126.61 according to http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...upplementary_Reports/Procurement_Authoriz.pdf 1/3 of that would be less than $10 million. So there'd still be $323 million available, if any of the federal money actually went to this ... not that I see that it would, given that the feds were funding an LRT project - not a grade separation for GO.

 

[nfitz]

The federal government has said publicly that their investment in Sheppard is secure but clearly they don't want an outcome where their money is going toward something half-assed or unpopular.

Maybe time to start writing letters to Conservative MPs complaining that they had promised 12-km of LRT, and instead are going to deliver an overpriced $1-billion subway extension that only goes 2,000 metres.

 

[Toffy]

And why isn't that a real consideration? "Ugly" reduces property values. "Ugly" reduces tourism. "Ugly" can increase crime. "Ugly" drives people away from areas. In other words, "ugly" has real financial impacts.

Elevated transit has to be ugly, right? I guess the SkyTrain in Vancouver is real ugly, hence why the areas around SkyTrain stations are booming. Elevated transit lines of our days aren't going to look like the El-Lines in NYC or in Chicago where most of it was built a century ago. Even the renovated L Stations in Chicago along the Brown line don't look bad at all, in fact they add a nice touch to the neighbourhood.

 

[BMO]

weird, lack of adequate transit also has those effects. bye.

I hope you do know he was referring to the elevated transit (in his mind inferior transit) as "ugly", he didn't literally mean "ugly" causes all those things.

 

[Nick.]

I hope you do know he was referring to the elevated transit (in his mind inferior transit) as "ugly", he didn't literally mean "ugly" causes all those things.

er, yes he did. read > comprehend > post.

 

[LNahid2000]

And why isn't that a real consideration? "Ugly" reduces property values. "Ugly" reduces tourism. "Ugly" can increase crime. "Ugly" drives people away from areas. In other words, "ugly" has real financial impacts.

Some of the most vibrant neighbourhoods in Queens, NY had elevated lines covering the entire street above them. Yeah, the elevated lines 100 years ago may be ugly, but they didn't seem to have any detrimental effect on Jackson Heights in Queens.

 

[sixrings]

Some of the most vibrant neighbourhoods in Queens, NY had elevated lines covering the entire street above them. Yeah, the elevated lines 100 years ago may be ugly, but they didn't seem to have any detrimental effect on Jackson Heights in Queens.

My Aunt and Uncle live in Queens Astoria. I wont lie the immediate street the elevated line is over is not a urban utopia. Then again its not full of dollar stores either. There is a equivelant to a shoppers drug mart, a foot locker, a mcdonalds, a subway restaurant, a bunch of other restaurants, and some other clothing stores. The closest immediate street I believe is ditmars and is very vibrant. When I visit I walk 10 minutes to the elevated subway and none of the area looks like a disaster. In fact its full of greek seafood restaurants and sushi restaurants with mercedez benzs outside. I dont think elevated should be everywhere. But you arent going to convince me that places like Jane north of St Clair, Don Mills north of DVP, Eglinton between Victoria Park and Kennedy & between Jane and the Airport will ever be pedestrian friendly communities (I guess Don Mills is probably the most likely of this list). However all of these areas are dying for transit. Elevated might not be the "prettiest" but it would get the job done and if anything raise property values. NIMBYism is about more then property values btw. If it was only about property values people at Y&E would be embracing sky rises as it would make their single detached homes sit on extremely valuable land.

 

[Tulse]

all of these areas are dying for transit. Elevated might not be the "prettiest" but it would get the job done

But the options aren't just elevated versus nothing -- they are elevated versus cheaper at-grade, the latter which also has the flexibility for more closely-spaced stops for more local service, and which likely would impact property values far more positively.

 

[sixrings]

but it appears alot of people are against at grade. They really need to do some research and polls. I think at grade works the best if the stop spacing is like a subway not like a street car. what im arguing about is people from these areas who are SUBWAY or nothing. Or people who think an elevated line will ruin property values on streets like jane or Eglinton (the east and west portions - not the central part). An elevated line property value wise will either bring up values or keep them about the same. I cant believe a elevated line can make these areas worse then they already are. (Again I really have to think about don mills - because there are some really nice houses around the street but not much actually facing don mills.)