TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Nick.]

I would pay another $1000/year in income taxes for stations that looked a little more like that and a little less like Museum Station. Particularly enjoying the lack of advertising.

same here, those look great. but when the TTC isn't even willing to make their logo look good I doubt the stations will ever be that well designed.

 

[andrewpmk]

same here, those look great. but when the TTC isn't even willing to make their logo look good I doubt the stations will ever be that well designed.

Almaty isn't exactly a very big city compared to Toronto. I can't imagine that the few little freeways in that city have much traffic on them. Given that the 401 is heavily congested, and all the east west bus routes in Toronto like Sheppard East, Finch East/West, York Mills/Wilson, etc. are packed, we need subways. Spending $600 million to lower the capacity of a subway line is absurd. It is crazy that in a high income country like Canada, the government is unwilling to spend the money to build subways and we get some idiotic proposals for low capacity tram lines. Meanwhile various levels of government waste billions of $s on fighter jets, Olympics, prisons, eHealth, ORNGE, Samsung, G20 and Pan Am Games. I challenge you to name a transit system that is considered world-class in a city of >5 million that either (a) builds half a subway line, stops, and builds a tram line (b) has light rail as its backbone of its network, rather than feeders to a large subway or commuter rail network. This is the sort of nonsense that happens in lousy transit systems in the USA in cities like Los Angeles.

 

[Dan416]

$600 million to reduce capacity? Now that's clear thinking!

It's folly and no politician would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

The longer the Sheppard subway gets, the higher its ridership will go as it becomes a real alternative to BD. If it ran from Downsview to STC it'd be a pretty decent line: you could take it from STC to NYC to VCC (via the Spadina line).

 

[sixrings]

It's folly and no politician would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

The longer the Sheppard subway gets, the higher its ridership will go as it becomes a real alternative to BD. If it ran from Downsview to STC it'd be a pretty decent line: you could take it from STC to NYC to VCC (via the Spadina line).

the longer the sheppard lrt goes the less that 600 million hurts especially if you consider you have an automatic savings of stations at both consumers and victoria park. you are going save way more then 600 million when you consider you dont need to tunnel and you dont need to make underground stations. if every station costs 150 million consumers vic park warden kennedy equals 600 million. start going west where you have fairbank senlac and bathurst thats an additional 450 in stations. plus operating stations cost more with elevators and people who have to man the booths. sure 600 million is a bitter pill to swallow but throwing good money after bad for a subway that doesnt make numeric sense isnt any better.

 

[Paleo]

It's folly and no politician would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

The longer the Sheppard subway gets, the higher its ridership will go as it becomes a real alternative to BD. If it ran from Downsview to STC it'd be a pretty decent line: you could take it from STC to NYC to VCC (via the Spadina line).

Convert it and it will get rid of a transfer and that's all that matters. As for the latter, you have to bet there are large amounts of people who would make that sort of trip. I'll take the bet against that any time in the next 50 years.

 

[sixrings]

Convert it and it will get rid of a transfer and that's all that matters. As for the latter, you have to bet there are large amounts of people who would make that sort of trip. I'll take the bet against that any time in the next 50 years.

tell me the price from downsview to stc as subway? now tell me the price from downsview to stc as lrt with a conversion? whichevers cheaper, build it.

 

[nfitz]

tell me the price from downsview to stc as subway? now tell me the price from downsview to stc as lrt with a conversion? whichevers cheaper, build it.

Well that's simple ... subway is about $4.15 billion or so according to Ford. LRT would have been $1.1 billion for the 12-km LRT extension - including a yard (which somehow seems to have been left out of Ford's subway estimate) ... and we'd need 13.5 km. At about $75 million/km for surface LRT ... toss in a bit for a terminus at Downsview, and I guess you're looking at $150 million ... plus the $1.1 billion, but $600 million for conversion ... so about $1.9 billion versus $4.15 billion.

There's no point pushing though. Build the Eglinton LRT with the tunnel and at-surface sections. Built the Sheppard East LRT. If Eglinton works well ... then it will become a no-brainer.

 

[sixrings]

Well that's simple ... subway is about $4.15 billion or so according to Ford. LRT would have been $1.1 billion for the 12-km LRT extension - including a yard (which somehow seems to have been left out of Ford's subway estimate) ... and we'd need 13.5 km. At about $75 million/km for surface LRT ... toss in a bit for a terminus at Downsview, and I guess you're looking at $150 million ... plus the $1.1 billion, but $600 million for conversion ... so about $1.9 billion versus $4.15 billion.

There's no point pushing though. Build the Eglinton LRT with the tunnel and at-surface sections. Built the Sheppard East LRT. If Eglinton works well ... then it will become a no-brainer.

i always assumed if sheppard lrt happened that the conversion would eventually happen as well once they decided to head west. that seems to make sense to me. im happy for eglinton to go back to its row design but to me its not a benefit if it just goes to wasting money on sheppard. if thats the case id rather them continue to waste it on eglinton and make it underground the whole way.

 

[Rainforest]

Well that's simple ... subway is about $4.15 billion or so according to Ford. LRT would have been $1.1 billion for the 12-km LRT extension - including a yard (which somehow seems to have been left out of Ford's subway estimate) ... and we'd need 13.5 km. At about $75 million/km for surface LRT ... toss in a bit for a terminus at Downsview, and I guess you're looking at $150 million ... plus the $1.1 billion, but $600 million for conversion ... so about $1.9 billion versus $4.15 billion.

My estimate for the cost of all-LRT solution is somewhat higher.

Let's not forget that Sheppard West from Yonge to the West Don bridge is too narrow for surface LRT. The tunneled section would have to be extended by 1 - 1.5 km even for LRT technology, and a separate bridge might be needed. That adds at least $300 million to the cost of LRT.

Then, the distance from the West Don Bridge to Downsview is about 2.5 km, LRT could be on surface there, and the cost is approx. 75 x 2.5 = $185 million. Plus, the terminus ($25 million?)

The Metrolinx estimate for converting the existing section was $670 million (not $600).

Add $1.1 billion for the section east of Don Mills, and we arrive to about $2.3 billion for LRT that reaches Downsview.

It will be quite difficult to sell an LRT project with that price tag to the public or the local councillors, especially when the first phase (subway-to-LRT conversion) causes a lot of hassle and does not, by itself, produce any transit benefits. Incremental subway extension seems to be more realistic (although Sheppard subway should not be given priority to the detriment of more beneficial projects in other parts of the city).

 

[gweed123]

My estimate for the cost of all-LRT solution is somewhat higher.

Let's not forget that Sheppard West from Yonge to the West Don bridge is too narrow for surface LRT. The tunneled section would have to be extended by 1 - 1.5 km even for LRT technology, and a separate bridge might be needed. That adds at least $300 million to the cost of LRT.

Then, the distance from the West Don Bridge to Downsview is about 2.5 km, LRT could be on surface there, and the cost is approx. 75 x 2.5 = $185 million. Plus, the terminus ($25 million?)

The Metrolinx estimate for converting the existing section was $670 million (not $600).

Add $1.1 billion for the section east of Don Mills, and we arrive to about $2.3 billion for LRT that reaches Downsview.

It will be quite difficult to sell an LRT project with that price tag to the public or the local councillors, especially when the first phase (subway-to-LRT conversion) causes a lot of hassle and does not, by itself, produce any transit benefits. Incremental subway extension seems to be more realistic (although Sheppard subway should not be given priority to the detriment of more beneficial projects in other parts of the city).

CC is right in saying that it would be a political hot potato. The only way that it could be spun to be even remotely palatable is if it was staged so that the shutdown occurred during the construction of the LRT extensions (so that citizens can actually see work being done), and so that the conversion and the entire LRT are finished and opened on the same day.

And even this would take a ballsy mayor doing it right after an election (so that it doesn't become an issue for next time), and somehow managing to keep it out of the media's view during the election. If it ever hits the front page during an election cycle, it's dead as a doornail.

 

[Palma]

M

It will be quite difficult to sell an LRT project with that price tag to the public or the local councillors, .

Well, they bought it on Eglinton.

 

[Palma]

s. unfortunately the sheppard line is already partly built and is being advocated by a number of politicians. .

Thats to buy their votes. Like when Giorgio Mammoliti tries to pit the "suburbs" against "downtown"

 

[Palma]

Many of the major newspaper's comment boards contain a staunch, anti-downtown attitude from posters. This was more apparent around election time, but is still rampant on The Sun. Make any mention of a Downtown Relief Line, and you're bound to get called out as a latte-sipping, elitist Lefty. .

Thats the Sun - and what you would expect from its readers. Its a whole lot different at the Star

 

[Palma]

I'd be pissed if Eglinton was placed above-ground, and so would the rest of the constituents on Eglinton. They don't want an elevated subway in-front or behind their house.

You got to be kidding. You think people living around St. Clair think this way? I would love to live near a Streetcar line that took me minutes to walk to from my house - adds "Value". You think the houses around St. Clair or College St are cheap?

 

[Rainforest]

Well, they bought it on Eglinton.

Eglinton does not currently have any advanced transit system, only mixed-traffic buses that travel through the central congested section at a snail's pace. Compared to the current state, LRT will be a huge improvement, whether it is fully underground or surface-subway.

If Eglinton had the Allen - Black Creek stubway built (instead of cancelled by Harris), a suggestion to convert it to LRT now would not be quite as popular.