TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[BMO]

I'd also be surprised if that western extension would only cost $1.3 billion. Keep in mind there is a major ravine crossing to deal with and the Spadina line alignment at Downsview isn't exactly conducive to turning Sheppard south. Either you'd have to start your turn further to the east and thereby miss Downsview station or you'd have the interchange at right angles and then have to build another stretch of track to the west to turn south and get access to the Wilson yard.

Wasn't Downsview Station built in anticipation of the Sheppard Subway West extension, I would imagine there parts of the design in place to facilitate the interchange here.

 

[gweed123]

Wasn't Downsview Station built in anticipation of the Sheppard Subway West extension, I would imagine there parts of the design in place to facilitate the interchange here.

It was. And yes, I would imagine that the design has taken into account a future E-W platform likely underneath the current N-S platform.

 

[accura407]

Building network redundancy into the system is invaluable. It increases capacity by distributing flow, relieves other station bottlenecks, limits inconvenience of station outages, gives access to railyards, and since we have some of Sheppard already built why not make it even more attractive to ride by extending it west. We get that at about $1.3B. Where else on the system could you spend $1.3B and get all that?

I have to completely agree there. Nowhere in the entire system can a mere $1.3B make a drastic difference. It would transform Sheppard from a shuttle line into a connector between two subways. Suddenly it has a proper use, even if it is relatively short...and initially low on ridership

A) The fact that the Wilson Yard could be massively expanded rather then trying to find a new Yard along Yonge is a value that should be counted into the equation...

B) It would be politically popular because it makes the line more useful even though in reality an eastern extension to victoria park is probably better (but looks less flashy since it just extends a stubway)

C) Unlike the corridor along Sheppard East which has undesirable parts that developers would think twice/hesitate about, Sheppard West between Yonge and Allen Rd is a very high priced, affluent, and desirable area. If the proper zoning is applied, there could be a condo explosion along the route. As it is, with just a basic bus service, it has many mid-sized, medium density redevelopments going on along the corridor...

D) Bathurst and Sheppard could topple pretty much any intersection on the eastern end of Sheppard (Vic Park/Warden/Kennedy) if zoning is adjusted accordingly

E) It would also utilize the massively overbuilt Sheppard-Yonge Interchange and put it to good use.

F) Also in the short-term...if the TTC is smart enough, they could market the University-Spadina Line as a DRL for people coming from the east along Sheppard...

If they can find out a way to reduce the cost of the line from $1.3B to under a billion (say $950...to equal the original Sheppard Line) then surely the federal funds + developer funds could probably get this line built...

I think if Ford wants to get anything accomplished...this should be his focus now...Eglinton-Crosstown will give some relief to Scarborough for the time being.

 

[LNahid2000]

How is an express bus over 4km a 'terrible travel option'? It's running time from Yonge to Downsview is about 10 minutes, not significantly more than a subway over the same stretch would be.

It's a terrible option because the 196B has severe bunching issues. The trip may only take 10 minutes, but I've often waited 20 minutes for a bus even though it is scheduled to come every 7 minutes.

Also, I don't understand all this talk about the 196B being empty. Almost everytime I'm on it, it's crush loaded. Maybe that's because of the bunching though.

 

[uptownto]

How is an express bus over 4km a 'terrible travel option'? It's running time from Yonge to Downsview is about 10 minutes, not significantly more than a subway over the same stretch would be.

It is terrible because if I'm coming westbound from Don Mills, I have to get off at Yonge/Sheppard and do like 5 sets of stairs to get to the bus bay and then wait for and get on to a pretty busy bus. Maybe not terrible if my trip originated from Yonge/Sheppard. I think once the Spadina line completes, this bus might just become an express bus to Downsview which would make this type of ride to York U even more frustrating. This is inconvenient enough for me to rather take the slog on the 401.

I'd also be surprised if that western extension would only cost $1.3 billion. Keep in mind there is a major ravine crossing to deal with and the Spadina line alignment at Downsview isn't exactly conducive to turning Sheppard south. Either you'd have to start your turn further to the east and thereby miss Downsview station or you'd have the interchange at right angles and then have to build another stretch of track to the west to turn south and get access to the Wilson yard.

According to Metrolinx, the western expansion is now estimated at 1.4B. I think I remember the 1.3 number from some of the election promises.. maybe Smitherman who also wanted this extension. But this estimate includes 2 new stations.. I think they could probably just get by with a new station at Bathurst if they really needed to cut corners.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/toronto_transit.aspx

The Sheppard West Project

• a 5.5 km extension of the existing Sheppard Subway west from Yonge-Sheppard station to Downsview at a cost of about $1.4 billion
• two new subway stations, subway cars, maintenance and storage facilities, rail and signal systems

 

[BMO]

According to Metrolinx, the western expansion is now estimated at 1.4B. I think I remember the 1.3 number from some of the election promises.. maybe Smitherman who also wanted this extension. But this estimate includes 2 new stations.. I think they could probably just get by with a new station at Bathurst if they really needed to cut corners.

With a West extension I think it would be best to have a stop at Senlac, and at Bathurst, then MAYBE a third one west of Bathurst.

Might as well make it accessible to the community it goes through/ services.

 

[gweed123]

With a West extension I think it would be best to have a stop at Senlac, and at Bathurst, then MAYBE a third one west of Bathurst.

Might as well make it accessible to the community it goes through/ services.

This may be an even better opportunity to do the integrated development (developers helping pay for the cost of the stations) that I spoke of a few pages ago. I would think that developers would pounce on those sites even more than they would on Sheppard East. If that's the case, adding 1 or 2 more stations in addition to Bathurst would be a relatively minor expense. The more station-adjacent areas you have in that area, the more attractive the area becomes to densify.

 

[BMO]

This may be an even better opportunity to do the integrated development (developers helping pay for the cost of the stations) that I spoke of a few pages ago. I would think that developers would pounce on those sites even more than they would on Sheppard East. If that's the case, adding 1 or 2 more stations in addition to Bathurst would be a relatively minor expense. The more station-adjacent areas you have in that area, the more attractive the area becomes to densify.

I can see this occuring at Bathurst and westward, but I in no way for see this ever happening at Senlac. (well the development wouldn't be able to be big enough to cover a large cost of the station)

 

[gweed123]

I can see this occuring at Bathurst and westward, but I in no way for see this ever happening at Senlac. (well the development wouldn't be able to be big enough to cover a large cost of the station)

Yeah, some stations may be a bit tougher than others, but overall I think that corridor would be very receptive to nodal densification around new subway stations.

 

[BMO]

Yeah, some stations may be a bit tougher than others, but overall I think that corridor would be very receptive to nodal densification around new subway stations.

Yea, there's no doubt that the idea has a lot going for it, and I would definitely support something like that to be used on all future subway construction.

I'm fairly young, does anybody know if the integrated building at York Mills station was built during subway construction or after?

 

[Dan416]

The Sheppard West link would be useful if it was built. It doesn't look like much but I'm sure it'll do better than expected, especially if there's problems downstream.

 

[drum118]

Yea, there's no doubt that the idea has a lot going for it, and I would definitely support something like that to be used on all future subway construction.

I'm fairly young, does anybody know if the integrated building at York Mills station was built during subway construction or after?

Going out on the limb, buildings came later.

It been said that one of the buildings is 80% empty and that where TTC should build their new HQ, not accross the street.

Lets built tall and density around the station and forget about the areas between the stations.

 

[lead82]

I am dumbfounded by the inflated numbers to build the Sheppard West extension. The current tail tracks go almost as far as Senlac. The distance from Welbeck to Downsview is 3.5km on Google maps, not 5.5km as claimed by Metrolinx. The whole thing can be straight tunneled without the crazy expense to build a bridge over the Don Valley. Yes, that will mean a deep Bathurst station, but so what? Deep stations just need longer escalators. It is not impossible and certainly cheaper than a bridge. The station doesn't even need a bus platform, just two side exits a la Lawrence station. Downsview interchange should not be too complex to build as they should have already designed for it. This essential missing link can be built with less than a 1B if the city wanted to save cash an not build airport terminals for stations. All this extension needs is some tunnel boring machines that could be reused from the Spadina extension to just keep digging eastbound. Only two new stations are required at Bathurst and at Downsview.

The biggest obstacle is the neighborhood will be against any massive intensification. The current mid-rise construction boom along Sheppard is mild and unobtrusive, but if the subway gets built, then that will have to change to look more like the area around Leslie station.

 

[nfitz]

I am dumbfounded by the inflated numbers to build the Sheppard West extension. The current tail tracks go almost as far as Senlac. The distance from Welbeck to Downsview is 3.5km on Google maps, not 5.5km as claimed by Metrolinx.

Closer to 3.8 km if you include the platform at Downsview ... however you'd need new tail tracks and/or a connection down to Wilson Yard, which would push the entire thing to about 5.5 km - minus the 800 metres of existing tail tracks, which would only need minor upgrades. Certainly the length of the construction project from one end to the other, would be about 5.5 km.

Number may be a little high, but is the number in 2010 dollars or escalated dollars?

 

[Mapleson]

I am dumbfounded by the inflated numbers to build the Sheppard West extension. The current tail tracks go almost as far as Senlac. The distance from Welbeck to Downsview is 3.5km on Google maps, not 5.5km as claimed by Metrolinx. The whole thing can be straight tunneled without the crazy expense to build a bridge over the Don Valley. Yes, that will mean a deep Bathurst station, but so what? Deep stations just need longer escalators. It is not impossible and certainly cheaper than a bridge. The station doesn't even need a bus platform, just two side exits a la Lawrence station. Downsview interchange should not be too complex to build as they should have already designed for it. This essential missing link can be built with less than a 1B if the city wanted to save cash an not build airport terminals for stations. All this extension needs is some tunnel boring machines that could be reused from the Spadina extension to just keep digging eastbound. Only two new stations are required at Bathurst and at Downsview.

The biggest obstacle is the neighborhood will be against any massive intensification. The current mid-rise construction boom along Sheppard is mild and unobtrusive, but if the subway gets built, then that will have to change to look more like the area around Leslie station.

Tracks aren't 2D, there is both a vertical and horizontal alignment that will add length as compared to 'as the crow flies'. The $1.4B figure already includes only 2 stations. Going under the Don Valley isn't just a deeper tunnel, it's operating time and costs for going up and down long slopes. They looked at the cost of going under vs over, and a bridge is the cheaper option with everything considered.