TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[BurlOak]

To eliminate concerns about the pantograph we could always use Bombardier's Primove technology. It's essentially wireless charging technology, allowing power to be sent to the train from the ground using magnets. Not sure how efficient it is however; almost certainly not as efficient as pantograph technology. And Primove still requires infrastructure under the tracks which would decrease the height of the tunnel.

Is there not the technology to have Third Rail in the tunnel and Pantograph on the street. This sounds a lot less high tech, but it uses more conventional technology that is proven over time and will not suffer as much from the growing pains of a new technology. I do not know any examples, but I would assume that it would also not be a proprietary system which would also help.

It should be high floor and TTC gauge to minimize (eliminate) the work needed inside the tunnels. At street level, I do not really see a problem with high floor. Ramps would have to be what, about 10 to 20m long to get from street level up to door level.

I would vote to do nothing on Sheppard for now, just add articulated buses, and spend the money to make Eglinton a full crosstown line - since Sheppard will never become that.

 

[BurlOak]

The LRT would have to be underground up to West Don, plus a new bridge over West Don will be needed.

Bridges are relatively cheap. Just think of them as elevated transit. I would give a conservative estimate of about $5 to $10k per square metre of deck area. For 8m wide structure, this is $40 - 80M per km. Much less than the cost of tunneling.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If it's good enough for Kennedy, it's good enough for Don Mills?

Are you referring to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Scarborough LRT transfer at Kennedy?

 

[Dan416]

Are you referring to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Scarborough LRT transfer at Kennedy?

No I'm referring to the Danforth transfer to SRT at Kennedy which has been hated for years, and still isn't being fixed.

I still can't see a rationale for converting Sheppard at a huge cost when a transfer like the one at Kennedy has existed for decades and no one cared enough to fix it.

 

[ssiguy2]

Any answers to my question?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Any answers to my question?

Cause the provincial funding ramps up over the years and they won't have enough to begin until the later part of this decade. Then there is the problem that Bombardier is not expecting to have to deliver any vehicles until 2019 or 2020, and the fact that the trains must have access to a train yard that would require the line to be completed to the yard, as well as the fact that a 1 stop LRT line would get such little ridership it would be a huge money hole for the years before the entire line opens...

In short, not only is there no sane reason to build 1km of a line 5 years before the rest of it, but it is actually impossible.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No I'm referring to the Danforth transfer to SRT at Kennedy which has been hated for years, and still isn't being fixed.

I still can't see a rationale for converting Sheppard at a huge cost when a transfer like the one at Kennedy has existed for decades and no one cared enough to fix it.

Coruscanti Cognoscente, this is a case of good old fashioned politics. People do care and everybody knows that extending the Bloor-Danforth to replace the SRT is cheaper than replacing the SRT in the long run and it provides better service. If transit was built in this city using common sense, the TBMs would be building the BD extension as I type this.

And there is a logical rational for converting Sheppard. As mentioned before, it should be cheaper to maintain and provide faster travel times. The political motivation for conversion may be there too. When North York/Scarb residents see that they have to make a transfer to continue going the same direction, adding minutes onto travel time, many may call for Sheppard to be converted.

Now to be completely honest, as it stands now I would not support the conversion of Sheppard to LRT. The money would be better spend elsewhere increasing rapid transit coverage across the city. I doubt anyone disagrees with me. If we had limitless money I would switch Shepard to LRT in a heartbeat, but this clearly isn't the case. Maybe in 50 years, but not now.

 

[gweed123]

Now to be completely honest, as it stands now I would not support the conversion of Sheppard to LRT. The money would be better spend elsewhere increasing rapid transit coverage across the city. I doubt anyone disagrees with me. If we had limitless money I would switch Shepard to LRT in a heartbeat, but this clearly isn't the case. Maybe in 50 years, but not now.

I don't see it being a good option right now, but I'm sure that when the talks of building Sheppard West come up, I would hope to see the conversion option at least seriously studied. Sheppard West is the key project that will tilt the scale one way or the other.

 

[ssiguy2]

Insertnamehere.....................thanks for the info

BurlOak.................I don't know of any particular subway/Metro that uses third rail in tunnels and then switches over to catenary when it rises to grade level but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. The Bombardier Primove LRT trains can run just as easily with power inbedded in the roadway/track as they can using catenary. The Primove is made to be flexible and all the Primove vehicles also come equipped with catenary power systems............they are made to be switched from one electrical source to another at the drop of a hat.

I don't know of any same technology with subway/metro cars but it seems it wouldn't be too difficult. Cleveland's Red Line subway is Metro is all senses of the word and uses standard size subway cars but are unussual in that they use catenary power. Eventhough they are catenary they are NOT EMU vehicles but standard Metro/subway dimensions and run on any standard third rail size track.

I've never thought of extensing the Sheppard subway at grade before like LRT but that doesn't mean it can't happen or wouldn't work.

 

[snowystar]

Cleveland's Red Line subway is Metro is all senses of the word and uses standard size subway cars but are unussual in that they use catenary power. Eventhough they are catenary they are NOT EMU vehicles but standard Metro/subway dimensions and run on any standard third rail size track.

They're not that unusual. Many metro/subway systems in Asia use catenary power.

Ottawa is building an LRT line that is going to be capable of handling 24,000 pphpd.

The catch is, Ottawa is building a LRT that is fully grade separated and is able to run at a headway of 1.75 minutes. This is how the system is capable of providing such capacity. Assume everything else is equal, a system with min headway of 3min can only provide 58% of the capacity.

 

[Ansem]

Conversion talks are crazy. Wasn't there a study that said that converting the existing line to LRT would be extra cost?

The Sheppard West extension will happen. Why screw up the opportunity to be able to use the subway trains and add a branch to the Spadina line like in other Metropolis around the world? A trains leaving Don Mills going straight to University avenue without any transfers would boost the ridership of the line and relieve Yonge Subway,

Converting the line to LRT is a bad idea.

With the Finch and Sheppard LRT who won't start construction until late 2015, we really have no idea how the network will look in the future yet. I really don't see how the Provincial liberals will hold on to power next year...

 

[nfitz]

With the Finch and Sheppard LRT who won't start construction until late 2015, we really have no idea how the network will look in the future yet. I really don't see how the Provincial liberals will hold on to power next year...

The LRT might not start construction soon (Sheppard East construction doesn't start resume until 2017, however Metrolinx recently announced that construction of the carhouse at Conlins Road and Sheppard East would begin in 2013. And there's been some mention of early construction of some track on Sheppard East to the carhouse, so there's something to test the new LRVs on. Once that contract is awarded, it's going to be difficult to back-track on a Sheppard East LRT, and the only issue left for debate is where the western terminus to switch to the subway would be.

I really don't see how the Provincial liberals will hold on to power next year...

Oh, there's lots of paths for the Liberals to hold on until the currently scheduled election date of October 1, 2015. They only need to get the support of a single MPP for any given non-confidence vote. And with the NDP now fallen to 3rd place, I can't imagine they would see much benefit to going to the polls, and losing what influence they might have. They've got a much better chance of influencing policy with a Liberal minority, rather than a Conservative minority, which is what the current polls point towards. All depends on who the next Premier is, and how well they play with others.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Coruscanti Cognoscente, this is a case of good old fashioned politics. People do care and everybody knows that extending the Bloor-Danforth to replace the SRT is cheaper than replacing the SRT in the long run and it provides better service. If transit was built in this city using common sense, the TBMs would be building the BD extension as I type this.

And there is a logical rational for converting Sheppard. As mentioned before, it should be cheaper to maintain and provide faster travel times. The political motivation for conversion may be there too. When North York/Scarb residents see that they have to make a transfer to continue going the same direction, adding minutes onto travel time, many may call for Sheppard to be converted.

Now to be completely honest, as it stands now I would not support the conversion of Sheppard to LRT. The money would be better spend elsewhere increasing rapid transit coverage across the city. I doubt anyone disagrees with me. If we had limitless money I would switch Shepard to LRT in a heartbeat, but this clearly isn't the case. Maybe in 50 years, but not now.

This man is too real. TigerMaster is one of the best. Truth be told, extending the BD to Malvern would save a lot and help densify scaborough.

 

[datamouse]

I don't see how converting the Sheppard Subway to LRT would lead to a reasonable reduction in operating/capital cost. What makes a subway so expensive is its nature of being underground and grade separated. There's the cost of stations, tunnels and possibly bridges. All of these would still exist with an underground LRT. Heavy rail demands more money spent on physical rail maintenance and I image it takes more traction power to move but the real costs exist with what I mentioned before. There's also the cost of signaling but I'm not aware of what's needed underground with LRT if it's not automated though I do imagine it would be cheaper to run than full subway signaling.

I disagree that people would get motivated to convert it to LRT to save the hassle of transferring. If anything there would be pressure to do the opposite and extend the subway. Building the Sheppard East LRT is contentious enough already and moving backwards from subway to LRT would be political suicide if a politician wants support from the area.

 

[GenerationW]

Oh, there's lots of paths for the Liberals to hold on until the currently scheduled election date of October 1, 2015. They only need to get the support of a single MPP for any given non-confidence vote. And with the NDP now fallen to 3rd place, I can't imagine they would see much benefit to going to the polls, and losing what influence they might have. They've got a much better chance of influencing policy with a Liberal minority, rather than a Conservative minority, which is what the current polls point towards. All depends on who the next Premier is, and how well they play with others.

If the Liberals don't call an election shortly after electing a new leader and instead try to hang on until 2015, their only path is ruin.