TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[11th]

I too prefer an LRT conversion if the end result is a C-train style operation (crossing gates, high platforms). Comparing C-train stations (ROW), on street to the ones planned for the "Transit City" lines, the TC (surface) ones are jokes.

 

[Dan416]

Completely disagree with spending money to have less capacity. And I don't see any politician going for that option. I would extend it to Downsview and Vic Park for now and leave it for a few decades.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

A conversion will never happen. Most transit users would prefer to use $600M to install bus shelters & elevators, modernize more subway stations or repair subway tunnels & tracks

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Looking at the BigMove.ca website, it just becomes so obvious that Sheppard doesn't fit in the overall plan. It's there isolated by itself with LRT being built on both sides and no prospects for its expansion as a subway line.

View attachment 9840

How do we save the money sunk into Sheppard and give it purpose?

1 - Convert the tunnel to LRT and extend it to link up with the Finch W LRT
2 - Finish the subway to Downsview. That's the end of the line. Further expansions would be impossible or make no sense.
3 - Turn the East edge southward and link up with the DRL eventually
4 - Connect to University/Spadina line to make it an interlining branch. Some trains go to YorkU, others go East to link to the Scarborough LRT

Out of these, the one that makes the most sense to me to fit into the grand scheme is to convert the Sheppard tunnel into LRT so that the rest of the BigMove plan could continue. But are the tunnels tall enough to accommodate an LRT train with its pantograph?

To eliminate concerns about the pantograph we could always use Bombardier's Primove technology. It's essentially wireless charging technology, allowing power to be sent to the train from the ground using magnets. Not sure how efficient it is however; almost certainly not as efficient as pantograph technology. And Primove still requires infrastructure under the tracks which would decrease the height of the tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Completely disagree with spending money to have less capacity. And I don't see any politician going for that option. I would extend it to Downsview and Vic Park for now and leave it for a few decades.

So you'd rather have Sheppard being split into a subway and LRT, requiring an extra transfer and adding minutes onto the travel time?

 

[nfitz]

Interlining up to York University should be more than sufficient.

Why would you propose that they run more service on the part of the route that is less used. There will be more traffic on the University line from Downsview to Wilson than from York to Downsview.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

With the provincial government eager to please the 905 with extensions to Vaughan and Richmond Hill, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they use the Sheppard Subway to connect to Markham new downtown.

That's a great idea but wouldn't it just duplicate service provided by VIVA and a GO 407 BRT?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Completely disagree with spending money to have less capacity. And I don't see any politician going for that option. I would extend it to Downsview and Vic Park for now and leave it for a few decades.

The stations can be lengthened within the station box to accommodate up to five LRV car trains (which is approximately the same length as six HRV car trains), if needed.

 

[Rainforest]

Personally, I'm in favour of the LRT conversion, assuming of course we're actually stuck with the Sheppard East LRT.

Yes, I know it'll be in the neighbourhood of $600 million for the conversion, but the way I figure it is that money will be more than made up for if the western Sheppard extension is done as at-grade LRT instead of a tunnelled subway extension. It's 3.4km from Senlac to Downsview Station. If you manage to save ~$175 million/km by building LRT instead of a subway extension, it ends up being even. Of course, if you can build the LRT for under $100 million/km, you'd be saving upwards of $250 million/km.

If a Sheppard West extension is for sure in the works, spending ~$600 million to save ~$850 million is a good deal in my books.

Sheppard at Senlac is too narrow for surface LRT.

The LRT would have to be underground up to West Don, plus a new bridge over West Don will be needed.

Saving could be realized only on the 2.5 km section from West Don Bridge to Allen; and likely would not cover the cost of conversion.

Plus, the very same transit users that are supposed to benefit from such conversion, will be greatly inconvenienced during it as the line will not operate.

 

[Rainforest]

The stations can be lengthened within the station box to accommodate up to five LRV car trains (which is approximately the same length as six HRV car trains), if needed.

While this is technically correct, five LRV car trains cannot possibly operate in street median. The whole line would require total grade separation, and that would completely defeat the purpose of conversion.

 

[Rainforest]

How do we save the money sunk into Sheppard and give it purpose?

1 - Convert the tunnel to LRT and extend it to link up with the Finch W LRT
2 - Finish the subway to Downsview. That's the end of the line. Further expansions would be impossible or make no sense.
3 - Turn the East edge southward and link up with the DRL eventually
4 - Connect to University/Spadina line to make it an interlining branch. Some trains go to YorkU, others go East to link to the Scarborough LRT

My preference is #5 - Connect to Spadina Extension. Half of all trains would service Vaughan-Don Mills, the other half Downsview-Don Mills. It takes two questionable lengths of subway, and combines them into a serviceable 17km line that actually provides some reasonable notion of northern crosstown service.

My preference is Option 2 or 4. In a very long term, I would consider expanding it even further both ways, creating an express route parallel to 401, and perhaps using 2 of 401's lanes for that line to cut the costs.

Option 5 will be very difficult to execute now. It would be quite doable if the future connection to Sheppard line was incorporated into the TYSSE design. But since it wasn't, adding such connection to the underground TYSSE tracks and stations afterwards will be prohibitively expensive.

Option 3 cannot be realized for a very long time, until a segment of DRL East between Eglinton and Sheppard is built. That segment would presumably be DRL Phase IV (after the Downtown - Danforth, Danforth - Eglinton, and Downtown - Bloor West sections); and currently we don't even have funding for Phase I.

Option 1 is an expense that, IMO, is very hard to justify.

 

[datamouse]

Don't forget the West Don bridge, it's too narrow for an LRT.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think there is any real choice but to simply extend the Sheppard further west to the Spadina ext. If the TTC had any forsight they would have made the Sheppard Westy station with Sheppard subway in mind and built both stations at the same time. East of DM or atleast Consumers I'm a bit of a loss although I don't think a subway is worth it but I don't like the Sheppard LRT plan either as it has too many stops and should go down to connect with STC.

BTW...........seeing Ford & Miller actually agreed on Sheppard in that it should be tunneled to atleast Consumers and maybe Vic Park and the feds made their $300 million contribution and Queen's Park gave it's funding, why the hell isn't it being built right now? They can bitch about what happens east of Consumers/Vic Park and west of Yonge later but this section could have easily been done by now as the moeny is there waiting to be used. What's the excuse on this one?

 

[Dan416]

So you'd rather have Sheppard being split into a subway and LRT, requiring an extra transfer and adding minutes onto the travel time?

If it's good enough for Kennedy, it's good enough for Don Mills?

 

[gweed123]

If it's good enough for Kennedy, it's good enough for Don Mills?

I don't think it's good enough for either.

In a perfect world, yes the Sheppard Subway would be extended both east and west, but the world isn't perfect. As for your earlier point about paying to reduce capacity: what good is capacity if you're never going to need it? Ottawa is building an LRT line that is going to be capable of handling 24,000 pphpd. By the time Sheppard ever needs beyond that, we'll both be at least retired, if not dead.

I know paying to change technologies is unappealing politically, but if it allows for a single continuous Uptown line, I think that's a price worth paying. And when you factor in the difference in cost between building the Sheppard West extension as a subway and building it as an at-grade LRT, the conversion pretty much pays for itself in that cost differential.

As it stands right now, the plan for the SELRT is borderline useless. Worse than borderline useless in fact, because it spends $600 million more than it needs to in order to become borderline useless. But unless something changes, it's going to be built, so the question then becomes how do we make it as un-useless as possible?

At least with conversion you get a continuous line, and you get the possibility for a significantly less expensive western extension. It's not an ideal scenario, but it's making the best out of a bad situation.