TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[M II A II R II K]

Too bad there can't be more midrise and sidewalk development on Sheppard instead of just condos with parking lots.

 

[11th]

Too bad there can't be more midrise and sidewalk development on Sheppard instead of just condos with parking lots.

More commercial development would be a nice change. I wonder how the planned MEC shop will fit into the streetscape - it looks to be two storeys with underground parking.

 

[andrewpmk]

More commercial development would be a nice change. I wonder how the planned MEC shop will fit into the streetscape - it looks to be two storeys with underground parking.

It will probably fit in much better once the Canadian Tire and IKEA on the south side of the street get redeveloped, surely this will happen in the not too distant future. These big box stores feel really out of place.

I am still terribly disappointed by the lack of office space (as opposed to retail) along Sheppard. Although, this has effected the entire city.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Given that the Sheppard line is very short and was obviously intended to be longer the ridership isn't really all that bad. The Yonge line is an exceptional case as it was the very first line; even in the first phase from Union to Eglinton was somewhat longer and has more stops. It would be pretty hard for any new line (other than the downtown relief line) to match that. The Yonge extension to Hwy 7 and the Eglinton line will probably be considerably lower, the Spadina extension to Vaughan might well have lower ridership than Sheppard. The Sheppard subway has an unusually high amount of condo development for a recently built subway line, and I think has the potential to capture a lot of car traffic if extended (traffic on Sheppard Avenue and 401 is bad, and the daily traffic volumes on 401 are well over 300,000 on the section between Yonge and DVP). It is simply not very useful because it is short, and due to the lack of other connecting subway lines making it useless for going anywhere that is not on the Yonge Line. It is very noticeable that far more people who live in the area drive than take the subway, particularly during off peak hours. Although this is a wealthy area, the traffic is terrible so I think people would use the subway, if it were extended and were useful for getting other places than downtown.

Short subway lines hardly ever get terribly high ridership. Paris' 3bis and 7bis are way lower than Sheppard, the Waterloo & City line in London is comparable (though hard to compare because it is closed evenings and Sundays) and both go through much more densely populated areas than Sheppard. Berlin has the U55 which was intended to be an extension of U5, but part of it was deferred and it is disconnected from the rest of the U-Bahn, and has low ridership. I'm not sure about the shuttle lines in New York or the "Ramal" in Madrid. The Scarborough RT is about the same as Sheppard (but seems much more crowded because the cars are smaller). The Canada Line in Vancouver is considerably longer than Sheppard, but not that busy - the per km ridership of Sheppard is higher.

Tramway T1 in Paris was extended 5.2km. The 5.2 km section is expected to carry 43,000 riders. Yes. A short surface LRT extension will attract nearly as many riders as the Sheppard Subway.

 

[datamouse]

It will probably fit in much better once the Canadian Tire and IKEA on the south side of the street get redeveloped, surely this will happen in the not too distant future. These big box stores feel really out of place.

I am still terribly disappointed by the lack of office space (as opposed to retail) along Sheppard. Although, this has effected the entire city.

I believe the final OMB hearing is due in Feb. for the Concord development. The main issue remaining is regarding having school land available for the TDSB and TDCSB.

 

[BMO]

Tramway T1 in Paris was extended 5.2km. The 5.2 km section is expected to carry 43,000 riders. Yes. A short surface LRT extension will attract nearly as many riders as the Sheppard Subway.

Is that per hour or per day? makes a huge difference.

 

[andrewpmk]

Is that per hour or per day? makes a huge difference.

The Paris tramway probably sees a lot of passenger turnover, like the Toronto streetcar system does, but the Sheppard subway does not (most people go from Don Mills to Yonge). The Sheppard LRT probably would see far less turnover as well, with the bulk of ridership getting off at Don Mills. This is a large part of why the King Streetcar has higher ridership than the Sheppard subway, most people are going a short distance and the King Streetcar is massively overcrowded. Though don't forget how horribly overcrowded the 85 was before the Sheppard subway was built. I doubt it if many people go very far on the Paris tram T3, most long distance traffic would use the Metro instead. If everyone who uses the tram line went from one end to another, it would be severely overcrowded.

 

[MetroMan]

Looking at the BigMove.ca website, it just becomes so obvious that Sheppard doesn't fit in the overall plan. It's there isolated by itself with LRT being built on both sides and no prospects for its expansion as a subway line.

How do we save the money sunk into Sheppard and give it purpose?

1 - Convert the tunnel to LRT and extend it to link up with the Finch W LRT
2 - Finish the subway to Downsview. That's the end of the line. Further expansions would be impossible or make no sense.
3 - Turn the East edge southward and link up with the DRL eventually
4 - Connect to University/Spadina line to make it an interlining branch. Some trains go to YorkU, others go East to link to the Scarborough LRT

Out of these, the one that makes the most sense to me to fit into the grand scheme is to convert the Sheppard tunnel into LRT so that the rest of the BigMove plan could continue. But are the tunnels tall enough to accommodate an LRT train with its pantograph?

 

[11th]

Looking at the BigMove.ca website, it just becomes so obvious that Sheppard doesn't fit in the overall plan. It's there isolated by itself with LRT being built on both sides and no prospects for its expansion as a subway line.

Well of course, Toronto council asked for it. They get what they asked for. (and unfortunately didn't get the same result a decade earlier)

.
How do we save the money sunk into Sheppard and give it purpose?

1 - Convert the tunnel to LRT and extend it to link up with the Finch W LRT
2 - Finish the subway to Downsview. That's the end of the line. Further expansions would be impossible or make no sense.
3 - Turn the East edge southward and link up with the DRL eventually
4 - Connect to University/Spadina line to make it an interlining branch. Some trains go to YorkU, others go East to link to the Scarborough LRT

#2. and since they'll be building pantograph compatible tunnels for Don Mills to Consumers Rd. anyways, bite the bullet and end the subway at Victoria Park. All the rest can be LRT and/or BRT. That at least sounds like the middle ground. No more killing a.k.a. converting the current subway, or extending it to STC.

 

[Markster]

My preference is
#5 - Connect to Spadina Extension. Half of all trains would service Vaughan-Don Mills, the other half Downsview-Don Mills. It takes two questionable lengths of subway, and combines them into a serviceable 17km line that actually provides some reasonable notion of northern crosstown service.

 

[11th]

My preference is
#5 - Connect to Spadina Extension. Half of all trains would service Vaughan-Don Mills, the other half Downsview-Don Mills. It takes two questionable lengths of subway, and combines them into a serviceable 17km line that actually provides some reasonable notion of northern crosstown service.

Interlining up to York University should be more than sufficient.

 

[Ansem]

With the provincial government eager to please the 905 with extensions to Vaughan and Richmond Hill, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they use the Sheppard Subway to connect to Markham new downtown.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe just connect directly with Downsview Park instead to connect with the GO as well.

 

[gweed123]

Personally, I'm in favour of the LRT conversion, assuming of course we're actually stuck with the Sheppard East LRT.

Yes, I know it'll be in the neighbourhood of $600 million for the conversion, but the way I figure it is that money will be more than made up for if the western Sheppard extension is done as at-grade LRT instead of a tunnelled subway extension. It's 3.4km from Senlac to Downsview Station. If you manage to save ~$175 million/km by building LRT instead of a subway extension, it ends up being even. Of course, if you can build the LRT for under $100 million/km, you'd be saving upwards of $250 million/km.

If a Sheppard West extension is for sure in the works, spending ~$600 million to save ~$850 million is a good deal in my books.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Personally, I'm in favour of the LRT conversion, assuming of course we're actually stuck with the Sheppard East LRT.

Yes, I know it'll be in the neighbourhood of $600 million for the conversion, but the way I figure it is that money will be more than made up for if the western Sheppard extension is done as at-grade LRT instead of a tunnelled subway extension. It's 3.4km from Senlac to Downsview Station. If you manage to save ~$175 million/km by building LRT instead of a subway extension, it ends up being even. Of course, if you can build the LRT for under $100 million/km, you'd be saving upwards of $250 million/km.

If a Sheppard West extension is for sure in the works, spending ~$600 million to save ~$850 million is a good deal in my books.

Ditto. With maybe using Primove between the tracks in the old tunnels instead of overhead cables.