TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[nfitz]

Oh, for sure. Throw in the Coxwell Streetcar, the church streetcar, a dufferin streetcar/LRT, a lakeshore streetcar/LRT, all the waterfront LRT lines, a Wellesley streetcar, etc. The first priority should be managing what we have first, and that is ensuring we have enough streetcars to run the services we have and future services.

Church? Barely enough demand for a bus, which is why they cancelled it. Coxwell works well with buses ... demand isn't high enough for streetcars, which would be less frequent. Wellesely either.

Streetcar on Dufferin might make sense - at least further south.

 

[smallspy]

Church? Barely enough demand for a bus, which is why they cancelled it. Coxwell works well with buses ... demand isn't high enough for streetcars, which would be less frequent. Wellesely either.

Streetcar on Dufferin might make sense - at least further south.

All those lines might be nice to have, but the first priority should be getting enough vehicles for the lines that we do have. No sense in building another 10 kilometers of track with nothing to run on it.

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

All those lines might be nice to have, but the first priority should be getting enough vehicles for the lines that we do have. No sense in building another 10 kilometers of track with nothing to run on it.

Dan

...and the conversion of Hillcrest to store the 512 and 511 streetcars. (Maybe 510 and 509, if needed.)

See Repurposing TTC’s Hillcrest Complex at this link.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A quieter TTC meeting next Wednesday, July 12, 2019. See link.

Presentations/Reports/Other Business

1. Chief Executive Officer’s Report – July 2019 Update (For Information)
2. Approved Minutes of the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transit (ACAT) General Monthly Meeting for May 30, 2019 (For Information)
3. Collective Bargaining Mandate – Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113 Customer Service Centre (This report is about labour relations or employee negotiations)
   (For Action)
4. Large Litigation Matters (This report contains advice that is subject to solicitor-client privilege, including communications necessary for that purpose and/or litigation privilege) (For Action)
5. Davisville Carhouse Pendent Power Supply System Retrofit and Facilities Upgrade
   (For Action)
6. Russell Carhouse – LFLRV Sand Silo and Delivery System (For Action)
7. Subway Air Quality – Final Report (For Action)
8. Support to Toronto Police Service Vehicle Mitigation Program (For Action)
9. Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) Wheel Flats Update (For Action)
10. Fare Payments on Wheel-Trans Contracted Sedan Taxis (For Action)

 

[Streety McCarface]

Church? Barely enough demand for a bus, which is why they cancelled it. Coxwell works well with buses ... demand isn't high enough for streetcars, which would be less frequent. Wellesely either.

Streetcar on Dufferin might make sense - at least further south.

Just outlining potential corridors. I think Wellesley would make sense since that bus route sees 10K people per day, despite it mainly just running from Wellesley to Castle Frank (for the most part). That corridor is only 2 km in length, so it'd have about the same ridership as the 509 per km.

The section between Wellesley and ossington has me curious. I get that it's really close to Line 2, but students are lazy. I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch would consider taking a frequent Wellesley/Harbord streetcar over walking to the subway or the 506.

Church has the benefit of running along the old Dupont streetcar tracks and serving the Portlands, as well as providing an alternative to the Yonge line on existing tracks, but Sherborne or Jarvis is probably a better bet for running streetcars down.

Ultimately, I do strongly agree with @smallspy and @W. K. Lis We need to improve our streetcar capacity on our existing network before we can build new lines out or resurrect lost services. Steve Munro mentioned that the TTC may be cutting service on Kingston Road come the 2020s, and it's probably more vital that we lobby to ensure the 502 and 503 remain in service before we call for expansion. Speaking of the 502/503, the line sees like 7000 passengers per day, assuming 5000 travel down Kingston road, that's about 1,700 passengers per km per day. It's not a long corridor, and removing service from that line would be a mistake.

 

[nfitz]

Just outlining potential corridors. I think Wellesley would make sense since that bus route sees 10K people per day, despite it mainly just running from Wellesley to Castle Frank (for the most part). That corridor is only 2 km in length, so it'd have about the same ridership as the 509 per km.

Yeah, maybe that bit ... I was thinking about Harbord.

The section between Wellesley and ossington has me curious. I get that it's really close to Line 2, but students are lazy. I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch would consider taking a frequent Wellesley/Harbord streetcar over walking to the subway or the 506.

It's about density. East of Yonge it's all large apartment buildings nearby. West of University is low-rise residential.

Church has the benefit of running along the old Dupont streetcar tracks and serving the Portlands, as well as providing an alternative to the Yonge line on existing tracks, but Sherborne or Jarvis is probably a better bet for running streetcars down.

Or Parliament ... Parliament ridership has grown significantly with the Regent Park rebuild, and the more frequent service. If they were to extend it down Parliament to George Brown/Corus where all the new condos are currently being built it would grow more. And much of it already has tracks. And it dovetails into what you suggest above for Wellesley, heading into Castle Frank. (Sherbourne ridership has also grown significantly, with TTC having to add more service a few times recently).

Steve Munro mentioned that the TTC may be cutting service on Kingston Road come the 2020s, and it's probably more vital that we lobby to ensure the 502 and 503 remain in service before we call for expansion. Speaking of the 502/503, the line sees like 7000 passengers per day, assuming 5000 travel down Kingston road, that's about 1,700 passengers per km per day. It's not a long corridor, and removing service from that line would be a mistake.

When I take 502/503, I'd say it's more than 50% who get off before, or at, Kingston Road. No one wants to admit it, but Kingston Road itself, probably doesn't have the demand for streetcars. Honestly, they'd be better off making the Coxwell bus overnight/weekend service permanent, and extending the route further east to near the Danforth Road/Kingston interchange. Which makes me sad.

 

[rbt]

1. Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) Wheel Flats Update (For Action)

This is a very interesting read for a day-to-day problem TTC handles rather than the emergencies and large evenets we typically see.

 

[littlewill1166]

Does anyone know if there is an extra fare required to ride this bus?

 

[Jonny5]

Or Parliament ... Parliament ridership has grown significantly with the Regent Park rebuild, and the more frequent service. If they were to extend it down Parliament to George Brown/Corus where all the new condos are currently being built it would grow more. And much of it already has tracks. And it dovetails into what you suggest above for Wellesley, heading into Castle Frank. (Sherbourne ridership has also grown significantly, with TTC having to add more service a few times recently).

I believe it has been reported somewhere--I don't recall the source--that Castle Frank would need a total rebuild to accommodate streetcars because the bus loop is essentially a deck over the Bloor subway tracks below and it can't support the kind of weight required to have streetcars and track placed in there. It was projected to be a very large expense in the eight figures to retrofit the station to make that possible. They would pretty much have to demolish it and redo the whole thing.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I believe it has been reported somewhere--I don't recall the source--that Castle Frank would need a total rebuild to accommodate streetcars because the bus loop is essentially a deck over the Bloor subway tracks below and it can't support the kind of weight required to have streetcars and track placed in there. It was projected to be a very large expense in the eight figures to retrofit the station to make that possible. They would pretty much have to demolish it and redo the whole thing.

Would a streetcar loop have to be in the existing bus terminal to service the fare paid area of the station? Perhaps build a loop on the side of the existing passenger entrance and relocate the passenger entrance to the bus terminal area?

 

[Northern Light]

Sooo, I'm not going to suggest this is a priority project to me........(not throwing shade, just saying)

But....if you did want to do it, you know there's another answer, right?

The bridge/viaduct over Rosedale Valley Rd, like its counterpart to the east is engineered to handle a railway/subway/streetcar service on a lower deck.

A combination of dealing w/an unwieldy turn /angle on Bloor and Rosedale residents who didn't want to hear rail screeching led to the enclosed bridge where the subway crosses today.

But it would be feasible to take the streetcar down at Parliament approaching Bloor and across a deck on the bridge, and then connect to the existing station at the mezzanine level.

Not cheap, but because the bridge is prepped for it, not that expensive either.

The only limitation is there is no easy space for cars to loop, so this would be easier and more cost-effective using double-ended vehicles.

I imagine, as an expensive and disruptive alternative, you could loop the park space on the north side and Bayview off-ramp or the grounds of Rosedale Schools for the Arts.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Would a streetcar loop have to be in the existing bus terminal to service the fare paid area of the station? Perhaps build a loop on the side of the existing passenger entrance and relocate the passenger entrance to the bus terminal area?

Why a loop? It there is to be any order, big or small, for additional streetcars, consideration should be done for double-ended streetcars. Instead of loops, wyes could be used to crossover. Additional crossovers could be used for short-turns or construction scenarios.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Why a loop? It there is to be any order, big or small, for additional streetcars, consideration should be done for double-ended streetcars. Instead of loops, wyes could be used to crossover. Additional crossovers could be used for short-turns or construction scenarios.

I suggest loops because there is something to consider with them, they often take less time to complete a cycle than using a Wye (this obviously isn't the case for Light Rail Vehicles or subways), but this is because of a few things:
1. The slow order required to go over the wye, often it takes the same amount of time for a CLRV to complete a loop than for a flexity freedom to wait for the switch, go over the Wye, and slow/stop into the terminating station.
2. Drivers need to switch ends of the train when at a terminal. This can add about a minute to the dwell at the terminal
3. Wyes require costly switches that occasionally break. This can be a risk on the subway, but it's more likely to happen on a streetcar line, where the elements, concrete stress, and other factors can damage equipment more easily.
4. Storage: you can only store 2 trains maximum at the terminus of a wye. This would create huge delays if a group of 3 bunched up streetcars had to use the wye. It has already for the iON system.
5. The requirement for different rolling stock. Introducing a wye adds complexity to the streetcar fleet. We'd need new vehicles with doors on both sides, and cabs at both ends. It definitely has its benefits, but in a city like Toronto, there are already too many different types of public transit technologies in use, it seems more like a burden than an asset.

A case for the wyes is the fact that they're much less noisy, which might be extremely important in the Castle Frank area. Space use might also be a huge benefit to users.

Wyes work great for the subway because they have a guard and a train operator, meaning they don't have to switch positions at terminals. The switches tend to also be more reliable. Nevertheless, we still get bunching issues at Kipling, Kennedy, and Finch, and we used to get really bad bunching issues at Sheppard West.

 

[nfitz]

I believe it has been reported somewhere--I don't recall the source--that Castle Frank would need a total rebuild to accommodate streetcars because the bus loop is essentially a deck over the Bloor subway tracks below and it can't support the kind of weight required to have streetcars and track placed in there.

I don't think I have seen that reported.

I'm not quite sure I fully believe it either, given a 30-metre Flexity weights about 48 tonnes - about 8 tonnes per axle compared to a 12-metre bus which weighs 19 tonnes, or 9.5 tonnes per axle.

Is there signage that stops 3 buses at Castle Frank following each other - because that would be a higher loading?

 

[W. K. Lis]

I suggest loops because there is something to consider with them, they often take less time to complete a cycle than using a Wye (this obviously isn't the case for Light Rail Vehicles or subways), but this is because of a few things:
1. The slow order required to go over the wye, often it takes the same amount of time for a CLRV to complete a loop than for a flexity freedom to wait for the switch, go over the Wye, and slow/stop into the terminating station.
2. Drivers need to switch ends of the train when at a terminal. This can add about a minute to the dwell at the terminal
3. Wyes require costly switches that occasionally break. This can be a risk on the subway, but it's more likely to happen on a streetcar line, where the elements, concrete stress, and other factors can damage equipment more easily.
4. Storage: you can only store 2 trains maximum at the terminus of a wye. This would create huge delays if a group of 3 bunched up streetcars had to use the wye. It has already for the iON system.
5. The requirement for different rolling stock. Introducing a wye adds complexity to the streetcar fleet. We'd need new vehicles with doors on both sides, and cabs at both ends. It definitely has its benefits, but in a city like Toronto, there are already too many different types of public transit technologies in use, it seems more like a burden than an asset.

A case for the wyes is the fact that they're much less noisy, which might be extremely important in the Castle Frank area. Space use might also be a huge benefit to users.

Wyes work great for the subway because they have a guard and a train operator, meaning they don't have to switch positions at terminals. The switches tend to also be more reliable. Nevertheless, we still get bunching issues at Kipling, Kennedy, and Finch, and we used to get really bad bunching issues at Sheppard West.

With track switches, the TTC has to over-rule the pennypinchers on the TTC and City Council who refuse to put in double-point track switches instead of continuing to use single-point switches. See link.

Single-point track switch:

From link.

Double-point track switch:

From link.