TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[drum118]

London is probably the best example of a mandatory tap-out. In fact, the gates won't even open if you don't have enough money on the card to pay for that very fare.

Its not the only system to do this. It also done by time as well.

We ran into a few gates where our card fail to be read and able to get out after the card was check by attendant at a special gate area.

We also had a case in Paris trying to get in to the station and no one around to deal with the issue. We had no clue where we could go to get into this station as we needed it to get us to the train station to catch our train for the next city to the point, we slide under the gate to get in since very few people where using this entrance.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

A number of system I rode in Europe, you must tap out to get out of the station. If I Remember correctly, one system required you to tap out to transfer to another line and tap back in and then out.

This will give the system the number of riders using the system daily, weekly, monthly and yearly. Same for the stations and lines.

A number of systems Europe also do the opposite, no fare gates at all, such as pretty much every system in Germany. At the other end of the spectrum, in Istanbul they have fare gates even for streetcars, and you have to tap every time you transfer lines on the metro.

As long as your measurement methodology doesn't change, then everything is fine because it's all relative. In this case, the Presto system gave data that didn't exist before, so really you can't compare before and after numbers.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not a fan of tap-out on the subway. Sure, some places practice that, but that doesn't mean we should copy them. Customer experience needs to come first. We have exit through gates which (I presume) do count the number of people exiting. There may be tailgaters on the way out (common when my spouse and I travel together) but not enough to invalidate the data. Transit planners are used to extrapolating and their statistical assumptions (eg x% of people tailgate on the way out) are backed up with periodic observation and validation.

It may not matter if you have to connect onto a surface vehicle where you will have to tap anyways, but for someone just heading to the street, it's damned inconvenient to haul out that pass all over again. One more opportunity to drop something. Major issue for people who keep their cards in a wallet or purse.

The recent issue with Metropass was interesting and maybe a bit embarassing for TTC, but its magnitude will go way down with greater use of Presto.

Statistical enthusiasts always want perfect data, but it's a cost-return proposition. Inconvenience how many customers per day, just to get data with x% increased precision? Let's not confuse cart and horse.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Inconvenience how many customers per day, just to get data with x% increased precision? Let's not confuse cart and horse.

Absolutely - there's more than enough data for any user, to figure out their regular commute. And for irregular travellers you can figure out 90% of it simply by looking at where their following trip originates. Perfect - no. Close enough - more than.

 

[DSC]

London is probably the best example of a mandatory tap-out. In fact, the gates won't even open if you don't have enough money on the card to pay for that very fare.

London only has tap out on subways and there they have fare by distance so it is really not comparable to TTC. More like GO where they DO have tap out from trains.

 

[robmausser]

I'm not a fan of tap-out on the subway. Sure, some places practice that, but that doesn't mean we should copy them. Customer experience needs to come first. We have exit through gates which (I presume) do count the number of people exiting. There may be tailgaters on the way out (common when my spouse and I travel together) but not enough to invalidate the data. Transit planners are used to extrapolating and their statistical assumptions (eg x% of people tailgate on the way out) are backed up with periodic observation and validation.

It may not matter if you have to connect onto a surface vehicle where you will have to tap anyways, but for someone just heading to the street, it's damned inconvenient to haul out that pass all over again. One more opportunity to drop something. Major issue for people who keep their cards in a wallet or purse.

The recent issue with Metropass was interesting and maybe a bit embarassing for TTC, but its magnitude will go way down with greater use of Presto.

Statistical enthusiasts always want perfect data, but it's a cost-return proposition. Inconvenience how many customers per day, just to get data with x% increased precision? Let's not confuse cart and horse.

- Paul

Tap out has to happen if there is fare by distance though. If the subway is uploaded to the province I can almost guarentee there will be fare by distance.

They arent going to let people have a $3 ride from Peel to Durham.

 

[crs1026]

Tap out has to happen if there is fare by distance though. If the subway is uploaded to the province I can almost guarentee there will be fare by distance.

They arent going to let people have a $3 ride from Peel to Durham.

Well, if we actually had a subway that runs Peel to Durham, that would be a nice problem to solve. I' not holding my breath.

I can't imagine Ford telling anyone in the boundaries of the City of Toronto that they are paying by distance within the existing subway. Fare by distance will need to preserve the City as a single zone.... it may be bad fare policy, but the politics of doing otherwise are impossible, especially since the people paying the most would be the suburbanites at the ends of the line, who are Ford Nation types.... whereas the ones enjoying the lowest fare would be the latte-slurping hipster liberals that Ford despises, who only need to go from Liberty Village to Broadview and Danforth.

That could mean tap on/off for the outer zones only. If you don't tap off in an outer zone within x minutes, or onto a connecting surface vehicle, you are assumed to have exited in the central zone. Far cheaper to only buy Presto-reading exit gates for the few stations on the periphery.

Having said all that, I can buy the need for tap off to implement some new fare scheme. I can't buy it when the rationale is simply to give planners better data. The latter is running the system for the benefit of the staffers rather than the customers.

Lastly, any idea of tapping off from surface routes is pure fantasy. Am I going to be able to pull out my Presto card while I'm cheek to jowl with my fellow riders on an overloaded Duffering 29 bus? Are the other 60 people on board willing to wait while I tap, curse, and grumble about the reader being down? Is the TTC going to open up its phone lines for people seeking refunds because they had trouble tapping off and were charged maximum fare for a less than maximum fare trip? Gonna be a lot of rear door readers getting smashed to pieces if they try that.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Nov 25
Roncesvalles Yard

St Clair West

 

[TransitBart]

I'm not a fan of tap-out on the subway. Sure, some places practice that, but that doesn't mean we should copy them. Customer experience needs to come first. We have exit through gates which (I presume) do count the number of people exiting. There may be tailgaters on the way out (common when my spouse and I travel together) but not enough to invalidate the data. Transit planners are used to extrapolating and their statistical assumptions (eg x% of people tailgate on the way out) are backed up with periodic observation and validation.

It may not matter if you have to connect onto a surface vehicle where you will have to tap anyways, but for someone just heading to the street, it's damned inconvenient to haul out that pass all over again. One more opportunity to drop something. Major issue for people who keep their cards in a wallet or purse.

The recent issue with Metropass was interesting and maybe a bit embarassing for TTC, but its magnitude will go way down with greater use of Presto.

Statistical enthusiasts always want perfect data, but it's a cost-return proposition. Inconvenience how many customers per day, just to get data with x% increased precision? Let's not confuse cart and horse.

- Paul

I'm a total fan of tapping out.

Any trip that ends on the subway, it's more than reasonable. How is this any more troublesome than getting squared in the nuts when you misjudge the speed at which you can push through a turnstile? Or catching your briefcase...lunchbox...purse strap...stroller....scarf....

On a surface vehicle, true enough. Probably no tap off.

But for a trip ending at a station. No problem. People can grab their phone in a moment. They can grab a card in a moment. Better yet. The iOS and Android NFC app for PRESTO. (But we've had that debate and the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome...)

 

[DSC]

I'm a total fan of tapping out.

Before talking about how tapping-out gets your rocks off one really needs to look at why you should/should not tap off and WHY you want it:
* If you have fare-by distance it is clearly essential.
* Do you want it to better understand customer journeys - but in that case you must be prepared to use it. (The TTC has had lots of data in the past but makes VERY little use of it. Steve Munro has shown how useful it can be in explaining performance and demonstrating that there is minimal 'route management'.)
* In both of the above are you only talking about subways? (in which case you cannot have surface fare by distance and cannot look at a total journey.)
* If you have tap off it needs to be as fast as if you don't.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I submitted two questions.

 

[drum118]

Nov 25
As TTC removes the hording for the south windows at Kipling, you get better shots of all the detour trains that pass the station. Most windows have fencing up at this time and should be gone in the next week or two to get better shots than the ones I got on Sunday. Then, the westbound train pass me as I was heading for the subway after catching the westbound Amtrak train from the overpass.

 

[steveintoronto]

London is probably the best example of a mandatory tap-out. In fact, the gates won't even open if you don't have enough money on the card to pay for that very fare.

But not on buses or trams.

Just touch your card flat on the yellow card reader when you enter and leave a station, or a River Bus pier. Remember that on buses and trams you only need to touch in. Find out more about touching in and out. If you don't touch in and out, we don't know where you've travelled, so can't charge the right fare.

Using contactless cards - Transport for London
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/how-to-use-it

 

[nfitz]

Tap out has to happen if there is fare by distance though. If the subway is uploaded to the province I can almost guarentee there will be fare by distance.

Not sure what uploading the capital infrastructure has to do with fare policies.

There's been no discussion I've heard about uploading operations.

Line 5 is already uploaded, and it has been promised that will be flat TTC fare.

 

[Johnny Au]

It couldn't be done with Metropass - since it had no brains at all, but can be done with Presto.
Presto should be a discount card.
Cash fare = $4.00
Presto:
1 to 10 times, cost = $3.00
10 to 20 times, cost = 2.90
20 to 30 times, cost = $2.80
30 to 40 times, cost = $2.70
40 to 50 times, cost = $2.40
50 to 60 times, cost = $1.50
> 80 times, cost = $1.00

If I have a subway card or McDonalds coffee card, they don't give me free subs for the remainder of the month. It's maybe 1 freebee, and then continue paying. Here you strongly discourage cash fares. Then people are encouraged to use the card more and more each month.
For this, <55 times a month, it't a bit cheaper (than current Metropass). Above that, it's more, but still a 50% discount (form the $3) for 55 to 60, and then 67% discount beyond that.

How would this work for those in the Fair Pass program?