TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Cobra]

I'm not voting for him. Don't trust conservatives with transit

 

[drum118]

Driver abandons vehicle and flees on foot after entering streetcar tunnel

 

[innsertnamehere]

Uploading the subway would actually provide a huge subsidy to the city. The amount of capital spending the ttc wouldn't be responsible for any longer would be massive.

And although only 2 stops are outside of Toronto, it will likely soon be 5 with the Yonge extension, and the system serves a larger regional role anyway.

That's just me though. I also think that all of the local transit agencies need to be amalgamated into the TTC.

 

[amnesiajune]

Uploading the subway would actually provide a huge subsidy to the city. The amount of capital spending the ttc wouldn't be responsible for any longer would be massive.

Yes, but the subway is the only significant part of the TTC that doesn't lose money (along with the Spadina streetcar and a few short bus routes). I don't think it makes much money, but it does break even at least.

The bigger issue is potential revenue loss and impact to customers. Does a provincially-operated subway system mean that the provincial government keeps fare revenue? Does it mean that TTC passengers have to pay extra to use the subway? Either of those would be a big problem.

 

[MisterF]

It seems to me that splitting up the TTC fails to address the real problem with transit in Toronto: how disjointed it all is. We should be merging all the GTA transit systems into one regional transit authority like other cities have, not dividing things up even more. Throw roads into the mix as well while we're at it so we can finally get transportation coordinated by a single body.

I'd be interested in knowing where Brown stands on RER and implementing the regional transportation plan.

 

[DSC]

The subway does not 'make money' see article by Steve Munro that exposes the fallacy of this idea! https://stevemunro.ca/2014/05/19/so-you-want-to-own-a-subway/

 

[DSC]

Toronto’s subway network has ceased to be Toronto’s subway network. It reaches into Vaughan. .

Oh, come on! It has a few stations about to open just north of the City. 99% of it is in Toronto. I think it's a stupid idea but if you want to argue for the Province taking over the subway at least use rationale fact-based arguments.

 

[amnesiajune]

The subway does not 'make money' see article by Steve Munro that exposes the fallacy of this idea! https://stevemunro.ca/2014/05/19/so-you-want-to-own-a-subway/

Great link! I guess you can argue that the subway breaks even or makes a tiny profit on operating costs ($1.68 per passenger) but once you add the cost of maintenance and upgrades it's not even close.

Oh, come on! It has a few stations about to open just north of the City. 99% of it is in Toronto. I think it's a stupid idea but if you want to argue for the Province taking over the subway at least use rationale fact-based arguments.

I think his argument can be rephrased this way: The subway is being treated as a regional transportation system, not a local one. That's why the provincial government prioritizes expanding it to connect with BRT in Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Mississauga. It's awkward to have one city operate regional transit.

If you ask me I'd like to have all transit operated above the municipal level by an agency like RATP, TfL, MTA or MBTA.

 

[TransitBart]

In this discussion, the real issue is that the parochial fools at Toronto City Council refuse to grow up and think big and that Toronto has lacked a mayor with grand vision for a long time. In the absence of leadership on transit at the core of the GTA , the province might be forced to do things in the region's best interest because the city can't see its way forward.

I have said this before. There is no way the province can allow the city to choke itself to death. And there is no way that Toronto can be allowed to do what Brampton City Council did with the Hurontario-MAIN LRT and scotch a regional plan because the plan did not coincide with their view of Main Street. That LRT should have connected three principal nodes on the Regional Rail network - Brampton, Cooksville and Port Credit. I have no doubt it will some day.

Toronto needs the Relief Line (Long and Wide) and if the city shows any inability to make a decision, then the province should step in. The stripe of the government at Queen's park does not matter as long as the job is done expeditiously and cost effectively. Less bullshit and more shovels in the ground.

Getting around is too bloody painful and everyone - whether in this rarefied group - or our neighbours - should make the candidates in the next provincial election aware that we expect action and improvement on this front without politicking or delay.

 

[amnesiajune]

The city might choke itself but the province adds its hands too. There's no reason why municipalities should be so limited in their ability to collect taxes. Maybe income taxes are too much, but if a city wants to implement its own sales tax I don't see any reason for the province to stop them. It also makes no sense that Toronto can have a land transfer tax but other cities can't.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In this discussion, the real issue is that the parochial fools at Toronto City Council refuse to grow up and think big and that Toronto has lacked a mayor with grand vision for along time. In the absence of leadership on transit at the core of the GTA , the province might be forced to do things in the region's best interest because the city can't see its way forward.

The problem isn't lack of vision. Both the City and Province have plenty of vision. See the Regional transportation plan, Toronto's transit plan, Toronto's growth plans, etc...Vision is the easy part. Implementation is the hard part.

I have said this before. There is no way the province can allow the city to choke itself to death. And there is no way that Toronto can be allowed to do what Brampton City Council did with the Hurontario-MAIN LRT and scotch a regional plan because the plan did not coincide with their view of Main Street.

Toronto needs the Relief Line (Long and Wide) and if the city shows any inability to make a decision, then the province should step in. The strip of the government at Queen's park does not matter as long as the job is done expeditiously and cost effectively. Less bullshit and more shovels in the ground.

Just because a plan is regional does not make it good. For example, the most recent Regional Transportation Plan has laughably implausible GTHA growth expectations, vastly underestimating growth in the City of Toronto (especially in the core), and overestimating growth in other urban centres. Accordingly, the RTP promotes ridiculous plans, such as the cancelation of the Relief Line West. If this is the nonsensical regional "vision" the provincial government is pushing, Toronto should absolutely scotch the plan.

Unlike the Regional Transportation Plan, the City's "vision" for the Relief Line does include beginning implementation of the Relief Line West in the near future (immediately after planning for Relief Line North is complete). City Planning is providing a somber second thought on the matter. But, again, "vision" isn't the problem, follow through is.

I have said this before. There is no way the province can allow the city to choke itself to death

This presumes the provincial government hasn't been doing just as much to choke Toronto to death.

 

[TransitBart]

This presumes the provincial government hasn't been doing just as much to choke Toronto to death.

The city could be more independent and grown up.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's just me though. I also think that all of the local transit agencies need to be amalgamated into the TTC.

This would only be beneficial if this included an increase in transit operations funding for the TTC that matched their increased expenses. Given the events of the last several decades, I find it highly improbable that the province would provide enough funding to operate a TTC that is amalgamated with the various suburban transit agencies. The result of this amalgamation would almost surely be a detriment to transit service in the City of Toronto, as the suburban regions would expect service levels similar to what is found in Toronto, while the TTC would not have enough money to effectively serve those low-ridership areas

 

[innsertnamehere]

^it would have to follow a restructuring of the governance systems currently in place in the GTA. I've long held the opinion that we need a new Metro Toronto, creating a single regional government for Toronto, York, Halton, and Durham. The various agencies all already operate under their own subsidies - providing TTC connections, fare structure, and consistent branding would be a big help. The current setup is so radically different than what would be able to support that however that I consider it a pipe dream.

The PC policy document has now been released, with some more details.

https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...lection-strategy-hear-from-patrick-brown.html

Transit related notes:

- Free wifi on GO
- Province would assume municipal cost of the Scarborough Subway, allowing the money to be directed to the Eglinton East LRT. The PCs are actually promising to fund an LRT in an round about way - very different than the Hudak days.
- The subways would be uploaded to the province, but the TTC would keep the fares. That is huge. it means the province would effectively be introducing a massive annual capital subsidy to the TTC. I assume the TTC would have to continue to pay for operating costs, but they would be operating a provincial asset.
- No tampering with existing transit commitments. GO RER stays in tact, and surprisingly, so do all existing LRT plans. At least from what we have seen so far.
- It says $5 billion in funding for subway expansion, including the Yonge extension and DRL. No idea if that is supposed to cover the $1 billion for the Scarborough subway as well.. But that seems like an extreme low-ball offer, unless they are planning a 30-30-30 model still with significant federal and municipal contributions. The DRL and Yonge North are projected to cost $10-11 billion together. Municipal contributions seem unlikely as they are assuming the municipal contribution for SSE.. It may be assuming 50/50 funding from the feds, which isn't that aggressive of an assumption IMO.

edit: found a link to the actual document. I'm going to read through it and make a new "political party transit promises for 2018 election" Thread.

 

[MetroMan]

Oh, come on! It has a few stations about to open just north of the City. 99% of it is in Toronto. I think it's a stupid idea but if you want to argue for the Province taking over the subway at least use rationale fact-based arguments.

My point is not that the subway network is in other cities, it’s that a very large part of its riders aren’t Torontonians. It’s used by people from all over the GTA and beyond to get to work from their homes outside the city to work in Toronto. It’s a regional asset whether you agree with if the province should manage it or not.