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The Urban Jungle
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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

wopchop said:
OK, if you say so. If you watch the full video, the punching constable shows up at 1:20. At first he is assisting the first officer with restraining the first guy, but then a big guy in a hat points out guy in the grey shirt (who I'm guessing was initially involved), and he goes and grabs him @ 1:32. At 3:07, the second constable (who arrived at 1:20) punches the guy in the grey shirt for the first time. Doesn't look like grey shirt punched him first, although he is grabbing his shirt at the collar, and I'll admit it is hard to see what happened prior because the video cuts over to them. At 3:52, he punches him seven times, all while grey shirt is being pulled away by the TTC employee. Grey shirt definitely does NOT punch him first before those 7 blows.
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He was clearly continuing to be aggressive and placing his hands on the TEO, grabbing at his collar.
Grey shirt guy was not some innocent victim here, and making him out to be some sort of harmless pacifist after attacking another TEO officer and continuing to act aggressively is disingenuous at best.

The TEO officer shouldn't get a raise, but I don't see him doing anything worth the outcry generated here.
 
picard102 said:
He was clearly continuing to be aggressive and placing his hands on the TEO, grabbing at his collar.
Grey shirt guy was not some innocent victim here, and making him out to be some sort of harmless pacifist after attacking another TEO officer and continuing to act aggressively is disingenuous at best.

The TEO officer shouldn't get a raise, but I don't see him doing anything worth the outcry generated here.
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I'm not claiming that he is an innocent victim. I'm sure he is an idiot for whatever he did that started this and he is an idiot for grabbing the officer. I never claimed he is a harmless pacifist, so stop trying to shift the goalposts. I'm saying that punching a suspect in the head seven times is not an appropriate response from an officer for a suspect grabbing your shirt. It doesn't matter how much of an idiot he might be. It simply isn't appropriate.
 
Byford: TTC reviewed video after the incident and concluded that there was no need to investigate the TTC.

TTC has now asked TPS to investigate, now that the public is aware of the video.

What a surprise...

Officers involved have been restricted to desk duty.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Byford: TTC reviewed video after the incident and concluded that there was no need to investigate the TTC.

TTC has now asked TPS to investigate, now that the public is aware of the video.

What a surprise...

Officers involved have been restricted to desk duty.
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Wait... Does this mean they knew and watched the video several months ago and decided it wasn't worth investigating? And now that it has gone viral, they are going to investigate?

Either that, or the wording of that tweet could have been far better...
 
wopchop said:
I'm sure he is an idiot for whatever he did that started this
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Assaulting an officer, is what got this idiot being restrained.

wopchop said:
I'm saying that punching a suspect in the head seven times is not an appropriate response from an officer for a suspect grabbing your shirt.
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Using force until the suspect stops grabbing at your neck is entirely warranted. Don't want to be punched by a peace officer? Don't attack them. It's pretty simple.
 
picard102 said:
Using force until the suspect stops grabbing at your neck is entirely warranted. Don't want to be punched by a peace officer? Don't attack them. It's pretty simple.
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I don't think that's the issue. It's later on, when he has the suspect pinned against the wall and keeps slamming his head with a fist, resulting in TTC station staff to intervene.

That's where self-defence turns into abuse. And if the officer is capable of abuse, one has to wonder what lead the guy to try and grab his shirt collar in the first place ...
 
nfitz said:
I don't think that's the issue. It's later on, when he has the suspect pinned against the wall and keeps slamming his head with a fist, resulting in TTC station staff to intervene.

That's where self-defence turns into abuse. And if the officer is capable of abuse, one has to wonder what lead the guy to try and grab his shirt collar in the first place ...
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I believe he was trying to prevent the officer from punching him.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I believe he was trying to prevent the officer from punching him.
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You can see clearly around the 1:30 mark the second officer comes in to detain the assailant, who then whips around and starts resisting and grabbing at the officers neck. This is well before a punch is thrown by the officer.

The officer only begins punching at 3:10 when he tries to break free and move towards the officer detaining his father on the ground, continuing to grab at the officers neck and act in an aggressive manner. At 3:30 the assailant then switches into victim mode and claims he just paid his fare and has no idea what's going on.

At 3:55 the assailant then reaches for the officers neck, and is given several more blows until he releases and another TTC employee steps in to help.

At 4:24 he move towards the officer again and continues to do so as the officer pushes him away.

The officer then continues to try and detain the individual from leaving, while a civilian pushes the officer and threatens the officer verbally.

Once the TPS arrive three individuals take the assailant to the ground and cuff him.
 
I showed the video to someone in law enforcement. She told me, regarding the second round of punches, that the officer would need justification for using that level of force. Being upset isn't justification. In her opinion, it looks like the officer was throwing those punches out of frustration, and that he had no justification for using that force. She also said that they should have deployed their expandable batons to get control of the situation and that the conduct of the officers was very poor. The situation shouldn't have gotten to this point.

I've seen others in law enforcement say similar things online and in the media. Perhaps the TTC needs to reevaluate the training of the TEOs. If what they say is correct, the TTC's TEOs may not understand how to properly deal with these situations.

Also, there needs to be public oversight of the TEOs. The fact that the TTC has just now decided to launch an investigation, even though they were aware of the incident, indicates that the TTC is unable to ensure ther officers conduct themselves previously. Perhaps body cameras are called for, as they've successfully reduced violent police interactions in the United States. Ironically, it was just two months ago that staff assured concerned city councillors that there was adequate oversight and that incidents like this would not happen.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
I showed the video to someone in law enforcement. She told me, regarding the second round of punches, that the officer would need justification for using that level of force. Being upset isn't justification. In her opinion, it looks like the officer was throwing those punches out of frustration, and that he had no justification for using that force. She also said that they should have deployed their expandable batons to get control of the situation and that the conduct of the officers was very poor. The situation shouldn't have gotten to this point.

I've seen others in law enforcement say similar things online and in the media. Perhaps the TTC needs to reevaluate the training of the TEOs. If what they say is correct, the TTC's TEOs may not understand how to properly deal with these situations.

Also, there needs to be public oversight of the TEOs. The fact that the TTC has just now decided to launch an investigation, even though they were aware of the incident, indicates that the TTC is unable to ensure ther officers conduct themselves previously. Perhaps body cameras are called for, as they've successfully reduced violent police interactions in the United States. Ironically, it was just two months ago that staff assured concerned city councillors that there was adequate oversight and that incidents like this would not happen.
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To play the devil's advocate, if they had done that with a cop they would have likely gotten far worse...
 
wopchop said:
So it's acceptable for a law enforcement officer to punch someone in the face multiple times for stealing a fare? Get real.
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Maybe you're new around here and don't remember round 1 when UT was making excuses and rationalizing the actions of thieves.

We don't know what happened before this selective bit of video from dubious individuals (with possibly questionable motives such as blackmail and extortion) who certainly can't be trusted and certainly we all know that videos can be altered.
 
Forgotten said:
Maybe you're new around here and don't remember round 1 when UT was making excuses and rationalizing the actions of thieves.
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Who are these thieves you are referring to? TTC has clearly said that this wasn't a fare dispute.

Forgotten said:
... we all know that videos can be altered.
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Are you suggesting that this video may have been altered?

picard102 said:
Felt like assaulting a second TEO officer for the day presumably.
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How do we know he assaulted the first one? As far as I know, TEO don't have powers of arrest. And yet we here on the video, one trying to make an arrest.

There is evidence that the TEO exceeded their powers. They can't touch someone. Surely if the TEO had tried to detain an individual, the individual is then being assaulted, and is allowed to use force to avoid being restrained. These aren't Special Constables.
 
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