TTC: Jane (LRT) RapidTO

[amnesiajune]

Don Mills LRT is not exactly a 'fantasy' if its being contemplated to be a subway now. Just saying. But I digress.

It's a fantasy as a surface LRT, which is what was proposed in 2007. If anything it could be an underground LRT south of the Don Valley,

Jane, on the other hand, certainly has merit.

Yes, but perhaps only north of Eglinton. South of there it's a low-density neighbourhood and the LRT would need to be tunnelled. If RER/SmartTrack/whatever is going to happen it might make more sense for the trains to go to Mount Dennis, where people can catch a train to Eglinton West, Dundas West or Downtown. It might also make more sense to operate a split service on Eglinton, where half of the trains go to the airport and the other half go north on Jane.

 

[amnesiajune]

I am the ultimate evidence guy. I make decisions on facts. It drive me nuts when my colleagues tell me 'I think' and 'I feel'. I don't care. What I want to know is what the facts say.

This is a bit short-sighted if you ask me. There's a lot of important evidence that is purely subjective or practically impossible to measure, and can't be contained within the scope of "facts". Just one example - when the TTC is planning service improvements, they consider any transfer to be equivalent to ten minutes of travel time, plus 90 seconds for every minute of waiting. That's not "facts" (it's the complete opposite). Getting off one train and waiting two minutes for another is a few minutes of travel time, not 13 minutes. But the average person treats it like 13 minutes of travel time because they feel inconvenienced during those two minutes. Many people will make a 40 minute trip with one transfer instead of a 30 minute trip with two transfers. There's a similar effect with seats. People will make a longer trip if they think they'll be able to get a seat instead of having to stand, because they feel less comfortable when they have to stand on a vehicle.

 

[WislaHD]

This is a bit short-sighted if you ask me. There's a lot of important evidence that is purely subjective or practically impossible to measure, and can't be contained within the scope of "facts". Just one example - when the TTC is planning service improvements, they consider any transfer to be equivalent to ten minutes of travel time, plus 90 seconds for every minute of waiting. That's not "facts" (it's the complete opposite). Getting off one train and waiting two minutes for another is a few minutes of travel time, not 13 minutes. But the average person treats it like 13 minutes of travel time because they feel inconvenienced during those two minutes. Many people will make a 40 minute trip with one transfer instead of a 30 minute trip with two transfers. There's a similar effect with seats. People will make a longer trip if they think they'll be able to get a seat instead of having to stand, because they feel less comfortable when they have to stand on a vehicle.

Well, I mean you can measure actual transfer time and perceived transfer time. It doesn't need to be non-fact based. You can incorporate both into a generalized cost of transfering and fit it as a variable into the generalized cost of a transit trip.

The second thing you described is also an observed effect. It is called "Willingness to Board".

 

[jcam]

I think a Jane LRT works well with the first one, and the lower portion is essentially replaced by the second one below.

Two options for DRL west:
- Queen-Roncy-Dundas West-Jane: Stations @ Spadina, Bathurst, Bellwoods, Dufferin, Sunnyside (Lakeshore GO), Dundas West, Junction (@ Keele), Lambton (St.Clair LRT, Milton GO, Jane LRT), Eglinton Flats
- Queen-Queensway, South Kingsway, Jane: Stations @ Spadina, Bathurst, Bellwoods, Dufferin, Sunnyside (Lakeshore GO), High Park south, Swansea (@South Kingsway), Jane (Line 2), Annette, Lambton (@ St. Clair), Eglinton Flats

 

[crs1026]

We need to know more about what the end destination for all those Jane riders is. My informal observation is that most who continue south of Eglinton ride to Bloor to catch the subway, and proceed in both east and west directions. Crosstown may be a gamechanger for this route, by providing an east west option that doesnt involve going all the way to Bloor. Downtown may be a destination, but transfer to RER at Mt Dennis (with appropriate fare integration) may be better than driving a line to Lakeshore to connect with transit there. Extending 512 to Scarlett Road would also provide an option, although When RER stops at St Clair and Mt Dennis as well as Bloor, a lot of options open. Again, fare integration woill be a game changer.

I can't imagine how Swansea residents would accept a line driven through their quiet streets. And really, the GO corridor is a better routing for RL.

- Paul

 

[jcam]

I can't imagine how Swansea residents would accept a line driven through their quiet streets. And really, the GO corridor is a better routing for RL.

- Paul

I just mean a fully underground tunnel going up South Kingsway to get from the GO corridor up to Line 2, no surface construction.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I just mean a fully underground tunnel going up South Kingsway to get from the GO corridor up to Line 2, no surface construction.

Still need emergency exits, stormwater management and ventilation shafts matey, maybe some utility relocates as well.

 

[jcam]

Still need emergency exits, stormwater management and ventilation shafts matey, maybe some utility relocates as well.

They're about 750M apart on TYSSE, so you'd likely only need one between Jane and Queensway (~1.8Km), which is roughly where the existing South Kingsway Parkette is.

 

[crs1026]

Considering how much fuss it took just to get some curb and sidewalk improvements on Riverside Drive, a subway would be a hard sell.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Considering how much fuss it took just to get some curb and sidewalk improvements on Riverside Drive, a subway would be a hard sell.

- Paul

Its always a hard sell anywhere, but at the end of the day, what does it mean for everyone?? The needs of a few are out weight by the needs of many and very few cases its the opposite.

When I did my master transit plan for the 2006 Transit Form in Nov, I call for a U line not knowing there was a vision for the DRL. I saw a line going along Queen to Jane St and then north onto it to Steeles with the east end using Don Mills. Downside to the Queen line, it would have very few stations on it due to ridership for them and hasn't change at all since then if you are doing a subway. If you use an LRT system that interline with other routes off it, you could add a few more.

Getting from Roncy to Jane was going to need more review at a later date based on what was in the way.

Where riders want to go is not where most people think they are going in the first place since a fair number are force to do it since there isn't other option nor fast enough.

To me, never supported an DRL line to Dundas Station West, since Jane was a better option as well seeing more riders and still do.

Regardless, being underground on Jane deals with all the issues south of Wilson to the point the LRT could/should surface north of Wilson. I did see Jane LRT going north into York before knowing about the subway plan for it.

 

[WislaHD]

I just see too many barriers for rapid transit on Jane between Eglinton and Bloor, and the area does not have the ridership potential as the same area on Dundas-West/Weston or Dufferin (my preferred DRL-West alignment) does. Most of the riders on the Jane bus come from between Weston Road and Steeles Avenue.

If the DRL is taken past Sunnyside to Windemere/S.Kingsway, then my preferred alignment would be to bring it to South Etobicoke where massive growth can follow, either along Lakeshore or The Queensway.

I am interested in rapid transit solution for Jane north of Eglinton though. We should wait to see how the opening of Spadina, Finch West and the Eglinton Crosstown lines impacts ridership first however. Travel patterns on Jane north of Eglinton may change significantly, whereas the present Jane bus south of Eglinton can handle the demand there handidly.

 

[Fred.S]

I am interested in rapid transit solution for Jane north of Eglinton though. We should wait to see how the opening of Spadina, Finch West and the Eglinton Crosstown lines impacts ridership first however. Travel patterns on Jane north of Eglinton may change significantly, whereas the present Jane bus south of Eglinton can handle the demand there handidly.

I think a Jane service from Mt Dennis to Finch West would be interesting, since the terminals and maintenance would be there already. Would require 8 km of double track. This would work better if there was fare integration with GO/UPX to entice people who were heading downtown via Line 2, to take the Kitchener Line instead. If not that, then a BRT may be better, since you could run exclusive ROW services between Eglinton and Finch, and mixed traffic branching service north and south of it.

 

[nfitz]

The two big "future" Transit City lines (Jane and Don Mills) were more of a fantasy and political posturing than an actual plan. Don Mills would've inevitably run into the same problem south of the Don Valley.

Didn't pay much attention to Jane - but Don Mills was real enough. But it became increasingly apparent that it couldn't just dump everyone at Danforth, and south of Danforth was going to need the DRL

Danforth to the Don Valley wasn't a big issue. There were options. For one it could have gone down Redway/Bayview to Castle Frank from Millwood. it could also have simply stayed on Don Mills Road and then along the Gardiner. or it could have been one-way north on Donlands and one-way south on Pape.

But waiting until we see where the DRL ends, and building a proper transfer station is probably the best thing.

 

[aquateam]

I think a Jane LRT works well with the first one, and the lower portion is essentially replaced by the second one below.

Two options for DRL west:
- Queen-Roncy-Dundas West-Jane: Stations @ Spadina, Bathurst, Bellwoods, Dufferin, Sunnyside (Lakeshore GO), Dundas West, Junction (@ Keele), Lambton (St.Clair LRT, Milton GO, Jane LRT), Eglinton Flats
- Queen-Queensway, South Kingsway, Jane: Stations @ Spadina, Bathurst, Bellwoods, Dufferin, Sunnyside (Lakeshore GO), High Park south, Swansea (@South Kingsway), Jane (Line 2), Annette, Lambton (@ St. Clair), Eglinton Flats

Personally I think that the problem with continuing west from Roncesvalles is that there is already a an east/west transport corridor/ROW there, it's just not used to its full potential. There's the Queensway LRT, Lakeshore West line, and a proposed LRT along Lakeshore or Queensway. So would we really continue to tunnel west with all those options?

I just see too many barriers for rapid transit on Jane between Eglinton and Bloor, and the area does not have the ridership potential as the same area on Dundas-West/Weston or Dufferin (my preferred DRL-West alignment) does. Most of the riders on the Jane bus come from between Weston Road and Steeles Avenue.

If the DRL is taken past Sunnyside to Windemere/S.Kingsway, then my preferred alignment would be to bring it to South Etobicoke where massive growth can follow, either along Lakeshore or The Queensway.

I am interested in rapid transit solution for Jane north of Eglinton though. We should wait to see how the opening of Spadina, Finch West and the Eglinton Crosstown lines impacts ridership first however. Travel patterns on Jane north of Eglinton may change significantly, whereas the present Jane bus south of Eglinton can handle the demand there handidly.

A Queensway DRL is an interesting idea. Maybe it could terminate at Sherway, and then Etobicoke could start talking about "completing" the DRL to Sherway. Just like how the Sheppard line would connect to the Bloor Danforth line at a shopping mall in order to finally complete Scarborough's status as a respected borough of Toronto, Etobicoke could demand the same. Toronto's shopping malls would be among the most well-connected in the world.

 

[WislaHD]

Gosh, why didn't we built this.....

A Queensway DRL is an interesting idea. Maybe it could terminate at Sherway, and then Etobicoke could start talking about "completing" the DRL to Sherway. Just like how the Sheppard line would connect to the Bloor Danforth line at a shopping mall in order to finally complete Scarborough's status as a respected borough of Toronto, Etobicoke could demand the same. Toronto's shopping malls would be among the most well-connected in the world.

Exactly what I was thinking. Extending Line 2 to Sherway would be excellent as well.

I don't know if I would interline them though. Maybe maintain it as an option just for moving of vehicles, but one of the two lines should probably extend to Dixie GO. That is where Mississauga is planning to concentrate a lot of its' growth.