thettctransitfanatic
Senior Member
In Spring 2020, you will be seeing Flexities roll down Dundas. They're currently doing work on the overhead to accomdate pantographs.
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In Spring 2020, you will be seeing Flexities roll down Dundas. They're currently doing work on the overhead to accomdate pantographs.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I wonder if it could be the first route that never sees a flextie with a trolley pole on it?
TransitBart
Senior Member
I wonder why streetcars are so special that the board of the TTC can't see its way to buying streetcars when it is regular, normal business to buy buses each year. We have made the ordinary and normal into an event as significant as scaling Mount Everest.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Because they buy buses more frequently than streetcars because there are more bus routes in the city and the average lifespan of a bus is less than the one of a streetcar or subway train.
drum118
Superstar
First off, Streetcars cost more per vehicle than a bus by a factor of 6-8 or about.
2. They have to be special order that takes years to get them and then tested if their from a different supplier before production can start on them. Even if they came from BBD, going to take a year or so to get the production line up and running once parts are obtain from various suppliers. Suppliers are a big issues to the point some new ones may have to be found and that takes time.
3. Since streetcar can last 30+ years compare to a bus that is replace every 15-18 years; can carry 2-3 times more riders than a bus and TTC having a small network, don't need a large fleet of streetcars compare to buses.
4. To order small order will cost more than a large order as well a longer time frame.
5. Since there is a high cost for streetcars, TTC needs 1/3 funding from 3 levels and that can cause problems depending who is in power. Toronto Council has known for 15 years that the exist fleet need to be replace, by chose to push them down the line and fail to do a 1:1 replacement since the bean counter figure only 204 were only needed. How wrong they were.
6. Since Council bought into Ford Transit Plan today, there is money there for more cars, but where do they rank in TTC list of things to be done with that money after State of Repairs taking the lion share???
drum118
Superstar
4588 is now tracking after arriving yesterday
All other test cars in the service bay
All other test cars in the service bay
smallspy
Senior Member
I don't think that it's that they are consider them so special. But the fact of the matter is that the market for streetcars and LRVs is infinitely smaller than that of transit buses. There are no off-the-shelf models like there used to be into the 1950s that the TTC can pick and choose from every year or two.
Dan
TransitBart
Senior Member
Which still does not eliminate the need to buy needed equipment on time in order to meet normal customer demand.
drum118
Superstar
Got $450-$800 million to buy 60-100 cars, as TTC doesn't have it nor the city at this time. Going to cost more per car than the current order as well parts. Hard to say what the Feds will give to help TTC to buy cars. Don't see Ford giving anymore money to buy the cars, let alone keeping TB open.
smallspy
Senior Member
You're not wrong.
But consider it from the TTC's standpoint - they will get a better price if they order 200 vehicles all at once, rather than, say, 4 orders of 50 vehicles. And there may also be standardization issues with multiple fleets, where equipment may not be the same between them. Ordering one homogeneous fleet will prevent that from happening. And that has additional knock-on effects on operations and training.
So long as the TTC continues to be financially handcuffed by the various levels of government, this is going to be the realty of their being.
Dan
drum118
Superstar
4586 has enter service on 506 after arriving Oct 17 from Russell Yard. It was place in Russell yard early yesterday.
crs1026
Superstar
The reality is, large capital acquisitions involve asking on bended knee. You can’t just go out and order 20 of something because you’ve detected a small uptick in demand. The ‘ask’ has to be packaged as an envelope and you only get one shot at asking for it. The approver will be cautious, meaning you may only get part of what you would ideally want - and you may not get it until there is a ‘crisis’ that’s already causing pain. Economies of scale are good, but the more you need the more likely there will be sticker shock.
This is equally true in the private sector as the public sector, it’s just the reality of approval processes and governance over large sums of money. There are tradeoffs between being proactive and being careful with money. Good planning helps, but all the right planning in the world doesn’t guarantee approval. Add in politicians, and it just gets silly.
- Paul
TransitBart
Senior Member
Don't get me wrong. I was not thinking of buying from a production line like buses. I realize that this is a once every half decade purchase I am decrying that the business (TTC) is not executing a plan approved by its operating board to make the necessary purchases to maintain the fleet at adequate levels.
There is a board. Are they all so dense and passive they can not lobby for what they need? A board oversees a business operation and directs management. Get off your duffs, folks. This is why I find the concept of a TTC board so laughable. If what you said is true, then get rid of the board and have the TTC chief report to the city manager like the head of sewage or the head of speed-bumps.
drum118
Superstar
4585 has enter service on 510 (kg510) after arriving Oct 18
All the other cars in the service bay and no testing Thursday
All the other cars in the service bay and no testing Thursday
smallspy
Senior Member
But then that goes back to my previous point about funding. The TTC has said for the past couple of fiscal years that they want to get more streetcars to increase the streetcar fleet. All they've gotten so far in terms of funding is enough to put out an RFI to the manufacturers. That level of funding is well short of what they need to actually buy the things.
Not only that, but that decision to buy can't be made in a vacuum, and contrary to what it might look like from the outside, it's not. Additional streetcars require additional storage, and additional staffing, which requires additional training. All of these things have a cost to them. This too has to be budgeted for. And that budget then needs to go to the City to be approved.
They do lobby quite a bit. But at the end of the day it comes down to what the City sets as its priorities. And right now, transit is not as high a priority as other things are at the City.
Keep in mind, too, that most of the Commissioners wear two hats - they are working for both the Commission, and their constituents as City of Toronto councillors. While they may feel that the TTC needs more money, they may also be hearing from their constituents that they need to try and keep costs down. And maybe this is part of the problem - maybe we need to have the oversight of the TTC separate from the governance of the City in the sense that the commissioners should not be councillors as well.
Dan