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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

drum118

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Those last 2 cars delivery this week maybe the last for this month, depending if BBD has a crew working on a car or 2 while the plant is on a 2 week holiday. Not sure if this is the start of the 2 weeks, or when it starts.

I'm sure BBD will be off the hock if CP stops moving trains due to the fire. The only other way to get cars here is the long way by using the US route and add a lot more time in shipping time as well cost.

Does anyone have an idea when cars will be ship La Pocatière, QC and what number the first batch will be? If more than 2 being ship at a time, will have to catch a spot to shoot those X cars on an Montreal train.
 

crs1026

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Those last 2 cars delivery this week maybe the last for this month, depending if BBD has a crew working on a car or 2 while the plant is on a 2 week holiday. Not sure if this is the start of the 2 weeks, or when it starts.

I'm sure BBD will be off the hock if CP stops moving trains due to the fire. The only other way to get cars here is the long way by using the US route and add a lot more time in shipping time as well cost.

Does anyone have an idea when cars will be ship La Pocatière, QC and what number the first batch will be? If more than 2 being ship at a time, will have to catch a spot to shoot those X cars on an Montreal train.

There’s another car waiting to ship at the Bay. The fires seem to have been held just short of the rail lines and didn’t really impact rail operations - yet.

I have forgotten just how many cars La Pocatiere will produce, but assuming it’s in the order of 40-50 cars, we are roughly 2/3 through production at Thunder Bay..... not that anyone ever had expectations that it would last this long.

- Paul
 

drum118

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There’s another car waiting to ship at the Bay. The fires seem to have been held just short of the rail lines and didn’t really impact rail operations - yet.

I have forgotten just how many cars La Pocatiere will produce, but assuming it’s in the order of 40-50 cars, we are roughly 2/3 through production at Thunder Bay..... not that anyone ever had expectations that it would last this long.

- Paul
I thought La Pocatiere was only doing the repairs on the first 67 cars only??

Its been stated Kingston was to have a line up and running by later fall or this now been moved La Pocatiere because of the repairs???

By the end of Q3, TTC will have 102 cars here, including 4500. Q4 is to see 22 cars, leaving 80 cars to be delivery in 2019. With 4494 to be here in the next week or so, leaves 8 more cars to meet Q3 schedule.

Based on what being seen on 4489 to date, not a finish car and being finish here or it has some serious issues since its hasn't done any testing so far.

With TTC staff taking holidays now and more cars in the fleet to maintain, going to take a well before new arrivals are ready for testing and in service. Then, the fleet is seeing more maintains than it supposed to and doesn't help getting new cars into service sooner than later. Just looked at the tracker and 4491 out testing with 4490 and 89 in the same spot 24 hours ago.
 

AHK

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There are still obvious problems with controlled deceleration / braking. Last night, one of the newest cars, I think it was 4487, was on King Street West, eastbound approaching Spadina, with a green light, no traffic ahead of it. The operator applied the breaks to slow down in advance of the switches. I do not know what happened - whether the operator over-reacted, or there was a glitch in the car, but the wheels locked with a screeching sound on the rails, and the car rocked from side-to-side. The operator quickly released the brakes, and then did a controlled slow down in advance of the switches, before proceeding through the Spadina intersection.

Training? Operator error? Equipment malfunction? Some combination of the afore mentioned?
 

crs1026

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I thought La Pocatiere was only doing the repairs on the first 67 cars only??

Its been stated Kingston was to have a line up and running by later fall or this now been moved La Pocatiere because of the repairs???

Good catch. I honestly can't remember which is assembling cars for TTC, I do recall with certaintly that LaP is making some components instead of Mexico.

- Paul
 

drum118

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Good catch. I honestly can't remember which is assembling cars for TTC, I do recall with certaintly that LaP is making some components instead of Mexico.

- Paul
I stand to be corrected, but all framing other than the cab section are being built at LaP.
 

steveintoronto

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There are still obvious problems with controlled deceleration / braking. Last night, one of the newest cars, I think it was 4487, was on King Street West, eastbound approaching Spadina, with a green light, no traffic ahead of it. The operator applied the breaks to slow down in advance of the switches. I do not know what happened - whether the operator over-reacted, or there was a glitch in the car, but the wheels locked with a screeching sound on the rails, and the car rocked from side-to-side. The operator quickly released the brakes, and then did a controlled slow down in advance of the switches, before proceeding through the Spadina intersection.

Training? Operator error? Equipment malfunction? Some combination of the afore mentioned?
OK! This is the first reference I can recollect about the brakes, which are horrendously bad on many of the Flexities, to the point that if you're not hanging on tight, both hands, and even at 5kph w/ brakes applied, they lock. *Grabby* is the classic terminology we used in driving business. Whether this is mechanical or software, I have no idea, but in a simple hydraulic coupling, the adjustment would be termed "modulating the braking"...and in some sophisticated hydraulic systems, there's actually a device called "the modulator" albeit its function is also to evenly distribute stopping force to a number of brakes simultaneously.
http://www.g-locbrakes.com/faqwd/what-is-brake-modulation-2/

My thinking all this time was "It was never like this on the European models" which have superbly measured and controlled braking.

Something's up....
 

lenaitch

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Those last 2 cars delivery this week maybe the last for this month, depending if BBD has a crew working on a car or 2 while the plant is on a 2 week holiday. Not sure if this is the start of the 2 weeks, or when it starts.

I'm sure BBD will be off the hock if CP stops moving trains due to the fire. The only other way to get cars here is the long way by using the US route and add a lot more time in shipping time as well cost.

Does anyone have an idea when cars will be ship La Pocatière, QC and what number the first batch will be? If more than 2 being ship at a time, will have to catch a spot to shoot those X cars on an Montreal train.

It doesn't sound like movements are affected so far. I know there was some concern for the CN ROW but CP runs a fair bit east in that area. If push came to shove, they could re-route over the CP-owned OVR at Sudbury to North Bay and down CN Newmarket.
 

felix123

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OK! This is the first reference I can recollect about the brakes, which are horrendously bad on many of the Flexities, to the point that if you're not hanging on tight, both hands, and even at 5kph w/ brakes applied, they lock. *Grabby* is the classic terminology we used in driving business. Whether this is mechanical or software, I have no idea, but in a simple hydraulic coupling, the adjustment would be termed "modulating the braking"...and in some sophisticated hydraulic systems, there's actually a device called "the modulator" albeit its function is also to evenly distribute stopping force to a number of brakes simultaneously.
http://www.g-locbrakes.com/faqwd/what-is-brake-modulation-2/

My thinking all this time was "It was never like this on the European models" which have superbly measured and controlled braking.

Something's up....

It's exactly like that on the Melbourne models.
 

steveintoronto

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It's exactly like that on the Melbourne models.
Interesting. I had to double check to make sure the ones I'm most familiar with from work sojourns in London were Flexities, and they are:
Tramlink is operated with 36 passenger vehicles.[18] The original fleet comprised 24 articulated low floorFlexity SwiftCR4000 trams built by Bombardier Transportation in Vienna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink

Mel's Flexities are built in China though, with the bogies coming from European factories:
Bombardier were awarded a $303 million contract for 50 Flexity Swift low-floor trams, with maintenance to 2017 in September 2010; the contract includes an option for a further 100 vehicles.[5] They are being built at Bombardier's Dandenong factory with local design input, including aesthetic design by Bombardiers Brisbane based Industrial Design team[6][7] with propulsion systems and bogies coming from Bombardier’s German factories in Mannheim and Siegen respectively.[8][9][10][11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-class_Melbourne_tram

One has to wonder if 'globalisation' isn't the common factor causing problems? In theory, it could/should work well. But such complicated systems live or die in the set-up and adjustments, especially if local content is used and not completely accounted for in algorithms and performance.

I'll dig deeper later to see if the Vienna built ones also use components from "Mannheim and Siegen".

One also wonders if servo systems (e.g: Grab and Release) are dependent on the frames being welded correctly...and what's a stable servo algorithm for a tight construction swings to instability when 'components in the chain' introduce factors beyond software and hardware damping and compensation?

Think an aircraft rather than a tram, different by degrees of consequence, but the same wild instabilities produce very negative outcomes in both.

Edit to Add: Just did a quick check for bogies, and found this:
Some welds were not properly fused in several areas of the car such as on the bogie and the articulated portals
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Flexity_Outlook_(Toronto_streetcar)

I'm rushed right now, but couldn't help but see Munro's reference to this, considerably more specific that what we've been led to believe: (How can braking be separated from bogie issues? Systems that effect "modulation" are only as effective as the bogies staying equidistant from each other)

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/07/04/bombardier-undermines-streetcar-credibility/
 
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felix123

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Interesting. I had to double check to make sure the ones I'm most familiar with from work sojourns in London were Flexities, and they are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink

Mel's Flexities are built in China though, with the bogies coming from European factories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-class_Melbourne_tram

One has to wonder if 'globalisation' isn't the common factor causing problems? In theory, it could/should work well. But such complicated systems live or die in the set-up and adjustments, especially if local content is used and not completely accounted for in algorithms and performance.

I'll dig deeper later to see if the Vienna built ones also use components from "Mannheim and Siegen".

One also wonders if servo systems (e.g: Grab and Release) are dependent on the frames being welded correctly...and what's a stable servo algorithm for a tight construction swings to instability when 'components in the chain' introduce factors beyond software and hardware damping and compensation?

Think an aircraft rather than a tram, different by degrees of consequence, but the same wild instabilities produce very negative outcomes in both.

Edit to Add: Just did a quick check for bogies, and found this:
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Flexity_Outlook_(Toronto_streetcar)

I'm rushed right now, but couldn't help but see Munro's reference to this, considerably more specific that what we've been led to believe: (How can braking be separated from bogie issues? Systems that effect "modulation" are only as effective as the bogies staying equidistant from each other)

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/07/04/bombardier-undermines-streetcar-credibility/

Haha "Dandenong" is a suburb near Melbourne. Those trams are built there. But I can see why you would have guessed the name was Chinese
 

Maltesefalcon

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Defective welds in bogie and articulated portal you say? In layman's terms the components that hold the wheels on the vehicle and keep the sections coupled together.

Well I'm sure glad it didn't affect anything important.
 

steveintoronto

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Defective welds in bogie and articulated portal you say? In layman's terms the components that hold the wheels on the vehicle and keep the sections coupled together.

Well I'm sure glad it didn't affect anything important.
If @felix123 ' claim is correct, there's every indication that "sending the cars back to Poc" isn't going to fully address an underlying issue. It could be a design fault, not just a welding/assembly one.

Btw: My apologies Felix, I was rushed and primed with the assumption that rolling stock was sourced in China, that has been a sensitive topic with Aussie rail vehicles, but the concern remains, irregardless.

Anyone else notice how incredibly rough the brakes are on the Flexities? I've seen seniors thrown around just on Spadina, nothing that fast, and I'm a very able cyclist, but trying to stand to secure my bike in the rack space provided can be impossible...and dangerous.
 

duper

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4491 is seeing a lot of testing on the 501 route this weekend. Entering service soon, I hope.
 

drum118

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4491 is seeing a lot of testing on the 501 route this weekend. Entering service soon, I hope.
Will it see the same faith as 4490 after it does its burn in?? Then does the normal 2 days preparing the car for service and then sits on the yard service track for a week so far??? Don't know if it could have fail the burn in and waiting parts. It been here 19 days so far.

At least it not a problem car like 4489 is, that still hasn't seen a day of testing after being here 27 days.

4491 has only been here 14 days and burning the tracks yesterday. Has done 2 days of testing so far and may see service by the weekend. That would put it in the 20 days range for in service these days. Done testing on Bathurst, 509, St Clair and the Long Branch area that I have seen so far.
 

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