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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

drum118 said:
It will be interesting to see TTC testing 2 cars this week once 4436 arrives. Its been 16 days since 4435 arrived and still hasn't reach its 600 km burn in yet and looks like it had some issues to go back to zero.

Looking at the overhead this past week, looks like 2018 will be the completion time frame and a reason all the cars are to have poles on them, not the plan 60. The plan schedule was the end of 2016 and this could be because of lack of funds to do the work.

Queen St overhead has been removed west of Victoria St and assuming to York St to allow the removal of the 2 bridges over the line. Wellington has also lost its overhead as well and for got to check to see if all of Richmond has the new overhead to replace the one that was removed for the rebuilding of the road.

Watch 3 505 loose their poles while turning onto Dundas off Church on Tuesday for the new overhead and have seen this at a few other location as well this past week.

I an off for the next week, as I am heading to Detroit for the Friday opening of their QLine and ride it and do some traveling. Want to see how the batteries handle the 60% off line as it will be the longest length I have been on for a battery car. 100% batteries cars are the future.
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Curious what the options are for retrofitting batteries onto the flexities? We will likely have them for another 30-40 years, so there is probably a good chance that in that time a retrofit might happen....could they go on the ceiling or under the floor? If there were sections of Toronto that could go wireless where to start? Tunnels? Barns? Where are the problem points? Would it make expansion easier (i.e. getting under the railway at Cherry? The lift bridge?)
 
georgevicbell said:
Curious what the options are for retrofitting batteries onto the flexities? We will likely have them for another 30-40 years, so there is probably a good chance that in that time a retrofit might happen....could they go on the ceiling or under the floor? If there were sections of Toronto that could go wireless where to start? Tunnels? Barns? Where are the problem points? Would it make expansion easier (i.e. getting under the railway at Cherry? The lift bridge?)
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I doubt we would see the TTC go to battery operation with the streetcars until it's actually proven in service somewhere. They are currently getting rid of the hybrid buses because of problems with getting in early with them. Probably by the time they will be looking at new Streetcars again is when they would consider something like that as 30 years is the average lifespan for transit vechles in daily service.
 
georgevicbell said:
Curious what the options are for retrofitting batteries onto the flexities? We will likely have them for another 30-40 years, so there is probably a good chance that in that time a retrofit might happen....could they go on the ceiling or under the floor? If there were sections of Toronto that could go wireless where to start? Tunnels? Barns? Where are the problem points? Would it make expansion easier (i.e. getting under the railway at Cherry? The lift bridge?)
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Absolutely zero. A hippopotamus is a hippopotamus. A zebra is a zebra. And a LRT vehicle designed to run from overhead is just that. The fleet would be scrapped and replaced before it got retrofitted. Ask a builder which job is easier. Renovating a home or building new. Nine times out of ten it's easier to build new.
 
TransitBart said:
Absolutely zero. A hippopotamus is a hippopotamus. A zebra is a zebra. And a LRT vehicle designed to run from overhead is just that. The fleet would be scrapped and replaced before it got retrofitted. Ask a builder which job is easier. Renovating a home or building new. Nine times out of ten it's easier to build new.
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Exactly. Plus, TTC built the entire overhead system and would continue to maintain/upgrade their equipment. Why would they scrap them just for some overpriced batteries? It will take decades for batteries to be much cheaper to maintain and would be more efficient and reliable than the current overhead system. Plus the LRVs would be more expensive.

The math simply don't work out for all the electric buses out there either. It cost twice as much for the same size vehicles. Getting cars off the road would be more environmentally friendly than buying electric buses within the near future.
 
georgevicbell said:
Curious what the options are for retrofitting batteries onto the flexities? We will likely have them for another 30-40 years, so there is probably a good chance that in that time a retrofit might happen....could they go on the ceiling or under the floor? If there were sections of Toronto that could go wireless where to start? Tunnels? Barns? Where are the problem points? Would it make expansion easier (i.e. getting under the railway at Cherry? The lift bridge?)
Click to expand...

There's nothing under the floor other than structure and eventually the rails, so they can't go there. And while the cars already do have some off-wire capability, what you are suggesting is far beyond what they are capable of now. It can be done, sure - but it's by no means foolproof, and has its drawbacks as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
georgevicbell said:
Curious what the options are for retrofitting batteries onto the flexities? We will likely have them for another 30-40 years, so there is probably a good chance that in that time a retrofit might happen....could they go on the ceiling or under the floor? If there were sections of Toronto that could go wireless where to start? Tunnels? Barns? Where are the problem points? Would it make expansion easier (i.e. getting under the railway at Cherry? The lift bridge?)
Click to expand...
It will cost big buck to put batteries into the new cars, as well ridership space and wouldn't recommend it.

After riding Detroit as well walking a large section of Detroit QLine, The Brockville cars aren't ready for prime time on a 60% off line The Brockville cars are for small system requiring 10 or less cars per order. They only seat 34 people on a 66' 3 section with a low floor centre section taking up about 60% of the car. The section has 4 flip down seats for riders if a bike is not hanging there with 4 spots for wheelchair/strollers. Trying to get the 2 sq ft per rider space to get the 125 riders per car and not going to make it on Friday ridership. Hate to think what Sat and Sunday would for riders not being able to get on any of the 5 cars on line. Crush loads all day with cars passing platforms with riders on them. Riders were forced off the cars at each end to get into a line to catch the car going the other way.

I going to have look into the 2 systems to get more info how one is going to convert their existing fleet from pan to battery; the cost to do it; cost saving not having overhead crews and a few other things. The other is doing a new fleet to replace the existing ones.

If you are going to go with 100% battery, you do a line by line replacement as well the removal of the overhead outside joint intersections.

At this point as a pusher for battery, time to step back and wait another 10-20 years before doing anything.
 
drum118 said:
It will cost big buck to put batteries into the new cars, as well ridership space and wouldn't recommend it.

After riding Detroit as well walking a large section of Detroit QLine, The Brockville cars aren't ready for prime time on a 60% off line The Brockville cars are for small system requiring 10 or less cars per order. They only seat 34 people on a 66' 3 section with a low floor centre section taking up about 60% of the car. The section has 4 flip down seats for riders if a bike is not hanging there with 4 spots for wheelchair/strollers. Trying to get the 2 sq ft per rider space to get the 125 riders per car and not going to make it on Friday ridership. Hate to think what Sat and Sunday would for riders not being able to get on any of the 5 cars on line. Crush loads all day with cars passing platforms with riders on them. Riders were forced off the cars at each end to get into a line to catch the car going the other way.

I going to have look into the 2 systems to get more info how one is going to convert their existing fleet from pan to battery; the cost to do it; cost saving not having overhead crews and a few other things. The other is doing a new fleet to replace the existing ones.

If you are going to go with 100% battery, you do a line by line replacement as well the removal of the overhead outside joint intersections.

At this point as a pusher for battery, time to step back and wait another 10-20 years before doing anything.
Click to expand...

Not really surprising that they aren't ready for primetime....agree that it's at least 10-20 years before TTC can look at it on their regular system. Potentially less (5-7) before I would look at it for new lines, although given the pace that some of these things work at we may get the design complete and then find out everyone wants to go back and redo it without wires (or less wires).

There is also potential for a battery trailer....which would save retrofitting...essentially just a box with wheels and batteries wired straight into where the poles attach...maybe just buy a few Tesla battery units add some wheels and cable it right in.
 
So I read that it takes about 4kwh to move a Toronto streetcar 1km...powerpack2 by Tesla is 200kwh...so 50km, plenty for a trailer type situation...cost is about $150,000...which works out to $30million...@5000 cycles that's maybe 5 years before a replacement battery is needed....

Obviously there are lots of caveats with this - you can't just hook a power pack up and add wheels, etc. etc...but it doesn't look totally ridiculous to see this becoming doable by BBD or Alstrom in the future.
 
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