Admiral Beez
Superstar
Surely inability to deliver on an agreed contract "should" have no influence on future contracts?
Why else have a contract with set and measurable performance metrics?
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Why else have a contract with set and measurable performance metrics?
nfitz
Superstar
I'm just assuming so.
It's not like it's the union's fault, that management screwed up. They've already been screwed over with all the lay-offs because there's nothing to work on, and now lost jobs, with some of the production moved from Thunder Bay to Millhaven.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Is it just me or does it not seem there hasn't been any news or pictures on the next streetcar delivery. Apologies if there was a recent update further up the thread.
crs1026
Superstar
Many heavy industries declare a 'plant shutdown' for 2-3 weeks and require all employees to take their vacation at that time.
Don't assume that the plant's union asked for, or is in favour of, the forced shutdown. It severely restricts workers' vacation options. More often it's the company who want the fixed window with all production halted, so they could do major maintenance, changeovers etc without having product on the line, and without having to figure out coverage for key positions while the regular incumbents are away.
What a union would likely demand is that if a vacation window had been declared previously, the company must honour it.... at least to the degree that workers who may have made bookings, paid deposits, coordinated vacations with friends or family members, etc etc aren't jerked around. Doesn't preclude asking for volunteers to take vacation some other time, if that's practicable and mutually agreeable.
All speculation about how the Blunder Bay plant functions, but please don't hint that we should slag the union without facts.
- Paul
pstogios
Senior Member
Was that included in the following optimistic view?
Maybe you shouldn't have been so optimistic.
Even if 4402 is delivered tomorrow, after that car, the company is on track to deliver only 6 more this year (4428 would be delivered on Dec. 14). This assumes one car every 3 weeks.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
I believe it was a suggestion by a counselor and not actually the TTC to exclude them from future contracts. The TTC has instead decided to sue them for the cost of rebuilding CLRVs to keep them in service until they can be retired. If you relly think that Bombardier will be barred from bidding for a TTC contact again then I can sell you the Prince Edward Viaduct for $1.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Is there GST on that?
Not a *councillor*...the Deputy Mayor and TTC Board member:
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...t-heat-on-bombardier-for-late-streetcars.html
TransitBart
Senior Member
I think if everyone looks back on the history, that you will all find that Mayor, smartypants, and purchasing expert David Miller was involved up to his elbows on this one. His greatness sole-sourced this from city hall, under the guise of sustaining Thunder Bay's industrial base. Perhaps his next goal was to be Prime Minister. who knows? It was a vastly political decision on a procurement that should have been all about technology and price.
All of us know that the TTC has a perfectly functional and competent purchasing department that does not need help from city hall. All of us know that politically driven procurement leads to some of the most inefficient and shoddy buying of all.
The problem is not and was not Bombardier, but politics. Sure exclude Bombardier in the future, then you'll have a sole-source Siemens contract. No better.
Shoddy management plagues many companies at times. The company is a fine company with a good history that has stumbled very badly on this contract. That does not remove the need to complete the current contract ASAP and also to get on with sourcing another 60 streetcars for the legacy network so that we can get through the sardines in a can routine riding the 504.
All of us know that the TTC has a perfectly functional and competent purchasing department that does not need help from city hall. All of us know that politically driven procurement leads to some of the most inefficient and shoddy buying of all.
The problem is not and was not Bombardier, but politics. Sure exclude Bombardier in the future, then you'll have a sole-source Siemens contract. No better.
Shoddy management plagues many companies at times. The company is a fine company with a good history that has stumbled very badly on this contract. That does not remove the need to complete the current contract ASAP and also to get on with sourcing another 60 streetcars for the legacy network so that we can get through the sardines in a can routine riding the 504.
steveintoronto
Superstar
David Miller and Satan, it's all their fault:
David Miller really gets around, quite astounding actually...I guess he doesn't take the TTC?
Google results for "Bombardier loses contract"
David Miller really gets around, quite astounding actually...I guess he doesn't take the TTC?
drum118
Superstar
It hasn't made any different who was Mayor or when since the 70's on out sourcing TTC rolling stock since TTC knew who was going to do the work in the first place.
Can anyone remember a tender going out for the T1's and TR's, as I don't recall hearing one at all??
I can tell you for a fact that there will be more bidder than Siemens going after TTC, GO Transit and VIA Rail orders with a wide open bidding process. Siemens is out of the picture for Streetcars until about 2022 at this time.
I have said since 2004, TTC was only asking for problems by putting all their eggs in one basket. That basket is a mess and needs to be thrown out.
I think the time has come to challenge Queen Park about dropping this job protection and who gets contracts since it fails to comply with current trade agreements, but most of all, we as taxpayers are getting rip off by pay more than what we should be in the first place.
I have seen first hand where Shoddy management have put top notch companies out of business.
I wouldn't be surprise to see the demise of BBD Aerospace Division within the next 10 year, since there is a 3rd player in the market now who will have their first plane flying by x company come 2018. A 4th is to show up in 2020's.
drum118
Superstar
When Miller was Mayor, ran into him a number of times on Line 2 during the day that no special events on. Even ran into him and his family a few times. Don't know how he travels these days.
Amtrak just awarded Alston a contract for more Acela train and BBD is not part of the contract like they were on the original order.
Once (if) BBD cleans up the mess on the current 4 orders for streetcars, it will be closing door time. If Montreal buy the Sky train as plan, it will be door closing after everything is built since no one is buying it these days. Honolulu who is building one that most likely see 50% of it built with the rest being LRT since its currently $1.5 usd Billion over budget and climbing. Council has issue a stop order for buying property for this line. BBD lost the contract for this line.
steveintoronto
Superstar
My comments were sarcasm. I've actually had a number of good experiences with Miller. He may be to the Left of me, but he's always been a straight shooter. If Miller is partly to blame, so is every other TO mayor since.
BBD have Toronto over a barrel. London took a hell of a hit, here's their response, and Toronto is going to end up doing same:
http://business.financialpost.com/n...eful-tube-project-nothing-short-of-a-disaster
Transit Bart appears at times to be very right of centre, but his comments are inconsistent with rightist views on Bombardier. Boris Johnson, for instance, just ran for leadership of the UK Conservative Party, albeit lost, on a very reactive pro-Brexit platform. Most of the scathing stories in Canada about Bombardier are in the Financial Post, although both the TorStar and Globe have very barbed ones too.
Bombardier is unaccountable to its own shareholders, let alone clients. A family dynasty, propped up with Geritol and Taxpayer subsidy.
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nfitz
Superstar
Saying "they might make it" is optimistic?
If I said that Trump might be elected, does that imply I'm optimistic that he'll be president and/or think the chance of his election is greater than 50%?
I've always assumed there's a 2-week summer and 2-week Christmas shut down.
Factories often shut down like this for regularly scheduled maintenance.
Napoleon
Active Member
Well they've been so slow producing streetcars, I'm sure there's been plenty of time to squeeze in whatever they needed to do.
Seriously though, it seems they must have had sections that are idle because they've been laying employees off. I can't imagine that it would be appropriate to have a shut down when they're this far behind.