TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Does the Mexico plant produce anything else for BBD, or is it just the LFLRV?
|
|
|
Does the Mexico plant produce anything else for BBD, or is it just the LFLRV?
nfitz
Superstar
Given that BBD's plant in Mexico has been there a long time, and they only just started doing the streetcars, I sure hope they make other things!
Re: the inflammatory language on the previous page. Keep the discussion on topic please, and stay away from flaming other members.
42
42
crs1026
Superstar
It was originally a heavy repair shop for the National Railways of Mexico. It was spun off, just as CN's Pointe St Charles and Moncton shops were. The main buyer was a large North American carbuilding firm which has been quite successful down there. The Bombardier facility is a more recent addition to the property. I'm suspicious that the carbuilder may have attracted the skilled trades and managers and Bombardier ended up with the dregs. The other rail product in the Bombardier facility is locomotive production - this is one of the places where the locomotive assembly that used to be done in London Ontario ended up. The reputation of the locomotives manufactured there is not stellar, although the same model is produced elsewhere and these units work fine. The same facility has completed transit railcar orders for various Mexican customers. I have not seen any reports of how the quality of these turned out.
- Paul
Last edited:
W. K. Lis
Superstar
We maybe stuck with the 204 new streetcars from Bombardier. However, the TTC wants an additional 60 new streetcars. They don't have to come from Bombardier. Maybe the TTC should put in an request for tender for 60 new streetcars, from all the streetcar manufacturers in the world. If the provincial and federal government allow for a lower non-Canadian content, that is.
If they ask for more than the Bombardier offer, then sue Bombardier for the difference.
Let's see what we get, before we sign anything. No harm in window-shopping.
If they ask for more than the Bombardier offer, then sue Bombardier for the difference.
Let's see what we get, before we sign anything. No harm in window-shopping.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
There are ways around the competitor-tender killing CanCon rules.
Vancouver set its tender for new Skytrain units so that Bombardier's home advantage was nulled. Thus they got theirs from Hyundai, even though all the previous trains were from Bombardier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Rotem
As for lighter vehicles, Calgary is buying its new vehicles from Siemens. http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ls-first-siemens-s200-light-rail-vehicle.html
It seems that only Ontario is stuck with buying from Bombardier, presumably because Queen's Park wants to protect jobs in Thunder Bay.
For Streetcars, I would go to Siemens, the market leader. NOW, if I was Siemens, I would offer to cover the $100-$200 million needed to keep the CLRVs operational plus whatever the TTC needs to pay to get out of the Bombardier deal, and then I'd sign a huge order with Toronto for new Siemens streetcars, necessarily modified for our tighter streets, like the Siemens S70 below.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I thought I read somewhere the BBD was signficantly cheaper than the other companies that bid on this contract already....if Siemens could not be price competitive then...why would they be now even without adding your suggested additional costs above.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Siemens bid $1.5 billion for the TTC order while Bombardier bid slightly below $1 billion. It wasn't even close.
pstogios
Senior Member
At the time of the tender, yes, it wasn't close. If you consider TTC may see the full order completed years late, then you have to consider the time value of money. Then the bids aren't so far apart after all.
$1.0B (2009) is $1.12B now, and could be as much as $1.2B in 2020.
What's better: paying $1.5B and getting your streetcars on time, or paying $1.2B and getting them years late?
$1.0B (2009) is $1.12B now, and could be as much as $1.2B in 2020.
What's better: paying $1.5B and getting your streetcars on time, or paying $1.2B and getting them years late?
nfitz
Superstar
If TTC pays the same price for a streetcar 4 years later, then it's even cheaper. Most of the payment does happen until delivery.
Steve X
Senior Member
Except your figures contradict itself. That was $1.5B in 2009. It's probably over $2 now with the lower Canadian dollar and inflation (if the tender when out today).
Spending $1.12B now is the same as spending $1.2B in 2020 (assuming that's the inflation rate). It doesn't matter when you spend the money. Money in the bank is also subject to inflation. For government, the commitments from variously government would be written for the amount to a specific year so that $1B committed in 2009 (in 2009 dollars) would mean a larger amount budgeted in the future years.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Well, I guess now we know why. Least cost tenders may be fine for govt stationery or furniture, but sometimes you've got to pay good money to get good results. I imagine the accountants at Bombardier were told upon winning the contract to find out how to rip out $0.5 billion in cost that Siemens' bid likely anticipated and covered off.
drum118
Superstar
Why did TTC not see anyone else bid on their other than the 2???? Simple answer is, everyone one knew the order had to go to Thunder Bay and they were not prepare to set up a shop there for TTC order to the point it wasn't worth the money to prepare a bid. Since Siemens was the main supplier in the US at the time and wanted to keep their foot in the door for future TTC, they through in a bid that was higher knowing full well it was a gravy train if they got the order at the end of the day.
Today Siemens has almost the same number of cars to be built as BBD for Canada, if not more to the point they most likely not bid on any TTC cars if retender. This still leaves 6 other bidders that can handle TTC order and up to Metrolinx to deal with their order.
Since there is now a new trade agreement in place for Canada and the World, can't do the job protection or set a 25% Canadian content like it was for this order.
TTC needs to hit the stop button now and wait 3 years for a new supplier to start delivery cars that will most likely be cheaper than the current order, depending on our dollar. Can put a tender out for 60 plus cars with an option for more and then hit the stop button down the road. Tender should went out last year.
Today Siemens has almost the same number of cars to be built as BBD for Canada, if not more to the point they most likely not bid on any TTC cars if retender. This still leaves 6 other bidders that can handle TTC order and up to Metrolinx to deal with their order.
Since there is now a new trade agreement in place for Canada and the World, can't do the job protection or set a 25% Canadian content like it was for this order.
TTC needs to hit the stop button now and wait 3 years for a new supplier to start delivery cars that will most likely be cheaper than the current order, depending on our dollar. Can put a tender out for 60 plus cars with an option for more and then hit the stop button down the road. Tender should went out last year.
Steve X
Senior Member
The problem is TTC needs a special ramp that no one uses in Europe or the world. It was an automatic rejection from most supplier. I don't know how much of the BBD ramp design is copyrighted thus how much of the technical details can be transferred to a new supplier if the tender went out. The worst case is they have to start the ramp design from scratch.
I don't see why TTC should pull out now as significant money had went towards engineering work, the TTC tweak version and assembly line setup. TTC would also be on the hook for all subcontract cancellation fee for part suppliers. This is money they can't recover if they pulled out. It probably accounts for at least 30-40% of the contract. BBD could sue the TTC if they pull out and not pay for the design work. It all about who breaks the contract and whats written down for the conditions to pull out. As long as BBD can prove they are doing all they could, the courts might not benefit the TTC if they pull out.
However, the TTC do need more than 264 streetcars by 2030 as the network expands into the portlands. The TTC should tender for the next next generation cars and have both suppliers delivering simultaneously. By 2019, the TTC can sue BBD for all the damage from the undelivered streetcars as they will probably delivery only 60-80 cars by then at this rate. I really think pulling out right now is stupid and the law is written up to help the one who sticks with the contract. Right now BBD is on the losing side.
I don't see why TTC should pull out now as significant money had went towards engineering work, the TTC tweak version and assembly line setup. TTC would also be on the hook for all subcontract cancellation fee for part suppliers. This is money they can't recover if they pulled out. It probably accounts for at least 30-40% of the contract. BBD could sue the TTC if they pull out and not pay for the design work. It all about who breaks the contract and whats written down for the conditions to pull out. As long as BBD can prove they are doing all they could, the courts might not benefit the TTC if they pull out.
However, the TTC do need more than 264 streetcars by 2030 as the network expands into the portlands. The TTC should tender for the next next generation cars and have both suppliers delivering simultaneously. By 2019, the TTC can sue BBD for all the damage from the undelivered streetcars as they will probably delivery only 60-80 cars by then at this rate. I really think pulling out right now is stupid and the law is written up to help the one who sticks with the contract. Right now BBD is on the losing side.
Last edited:
edmundoconnor
Active Member
I wouldn't cancel the original 204-car order. I would however not exercise the 60-car option, and start tendering for that option now, with BBD eliminated from consideration. The true test will be whether the city would willing to take on the entire cost themselves, thus rendering 'buy Canada' provisions with the province and federal government irrelevant (unlikely) or be able to persuade the province or federal government to be more flexible on Canadian content (equally unlikely).* And everyone would have to stomach higher prices than BBD, but with the realization that they're going to get a quality product (if the right supplier is chosen), delivered on time, not just when the supplier feels like it. If Canada is always going to go Buy Canada, for streetcars that effectively means Buy Bombardier, no matter how many times they screw up.