BayStBoi
New Member
...also at the very back, the left side seats are singles vs. doubles on both sides like they used to be.
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...also at the very back, the left side seats are singles vs. doubles on both sides like they used to be.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is there a financial penalty if BBD doesn't meet the target?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Never forget:
The first of the 204 new streetcars — price tag: $1.2 billion — were so flawed that the TTC simply couldn’t risk putting them into service because they would almost certainly break down on Toronto streets, he said.
Parts produced in Mexico were so poorly made that they couldn’t be properly assembled in Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant, where attempts to rivet badly cut walls and under-frames were rejected by the TTC.
I hope that delivering crap like this isn't standard in the train industry.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
My guess would be thath it's easier for them to use the new ones for a new route as they don't have to make up signs to put in the windows of existing cars as I really doubt they are going to put in brand new roll signs for cars they are going to scrap. It would be like the putting signs for the sheppard line on the H series of subway trains/ Plus as pointed out in the report it would give them another accessible rout east to west as the only one currently in downtown is the wesley bus
That was during the pan am games not the EX, During the Ex all service was as it normally is. They only had LFRVS on 509. 511 was served by ALRVS and CLRVs like normal For the Panam games they put a couple of the LFRVS on 511 and took them off of 510 and shortened the route because they didn't have enough of them at that point to have the full route of 510 in service and have them on Bathurst. I think at that point they only had about 6 in service on any given day with 2 on each of the three routes.
dowlingm
Senior Member
C/ALRVs to be withdrawn in 2024 per AODA legislation, no matter how much life is left in them by then (give or take a few units for heritage use, if that happens)Awesome, so we'll have 60 extra streetcars until the Bombardier order is done. So, on a more hypothetical note, what should we do with them after the order is completed? (That is, what should we be doing in 2035) The 60 cars we keep won't be accessible so for general capacity we'd want newer cars but could the 60 be useful as rush hour trippers? Obviously it would suck if someone had mobility issues and got stuck in the rain or snow while everyone around them got on board an older car but it'd be a useful way to provide rush hour service from my uneducated perspective.
Steve X
Senior Member
I highly doubt the CLRVs or ALRVs would last till 2024. It's just for the next few years, they are short of streetcars. Right now we have buses on the 502, 503 and 504 cause BBD can't deliver.
They also shouldn't be taking the new cars from Spadina for the EX this year. They deem the 510 accessible so new cars should make up most of the runs.
BBD tried to push these out the door so they can deliver them on time. Good thing TTC knew better and forced them to fix everything before it even leaves the property. Clearly their Mexico operations is so horrible, even China does better.
nfitz
Superstar
No, it's not required for them to be withdrawn.
The legislation requires the service be accessible - not that every vehicle be accessible. If you are on a frequent route that runs every 2 minutes, they can easily meet accessibility standards by running every 2nd vehicle as accessible.
Then why, in 2016 and 2017, are they doing 10-year life expansion on 30 ALRV vehicles?
And why do the long-term fleet plans show that the 204 Flexities are not enough to provide service, and will be supplemented by ALRVs on 504, during peak.
drum118
Superstar
On the surface you are correct, but MTO wanted the cars gone 100% by 2018 some years ago before this mess.
Just like the high floor buses that were to be 100% accessibly by 2012, there was a waver for some of them based on when they were rebuilt. Any bus that was rebuilt within 5 years of 2012 were allow to remain in service for up to 6 years after 2012 as peak load bus or as needed bus. Some systems still have some high floor buses today and use them at peak time.
Since TTC is force to rebuilt about 60 cars, MTO will allow them to be use like the buses, until the drop dead date of December 2025. Unless MTO issue a waver by the end of 2025 for these cars, TTC will remove what every left of the existing fleet at that time.
With TTC rebuilding 60 cars, it will allow them to delay ordering the additional 60 cars that were supposed to be order last year as an option, now schedule for 2017 when the 60th car shows up. Based on current issues, it could held off until the full order is here and that would place delivery early 2020 to 2025.
From 2018-2025, TTC will roll the exist fleet out at peak time only or as needed.
The goal of TTC has been from day one to roll cars out to all routes as every 2-3 cars once the first 2 routes were converted 100%. This allow some accessibility on all routes until they are full converted by 2018/19.
As for the 10 year life cycle extension, you need to set a target frame that long since TTC wants to be sure they have cars to meet the current service demand, but also what has been plan and can't be delivery at this time because of the mess. Covering one ass to make sure there is cars to carry riders if something happens with the current order, let alone any options.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
From what I got from the CEO's report, the 35,000km MDBF must be reached before the 61st streetcar is delivered. I assume this is normal for such a lare cvontract?
(from pg 41.)
The MDBF in January 2016 was 12,044 kilometres.
The contractual MDBF is 35,000 km. This target must be met as a pre-requisite for delivery of the 61st new streetcar and beyond. The MDBF results for the new streetcars are subject to review by the Failure Review Board, which will be composed of representatives from the car builder and TTC. The MDBF data is for relevant vehicle-related delays only. The data does not account for delays caused by the systems such as Radio (TTC Communications) and Farecard (PRESTO).
The TTC's target will be established after the receipt of the 60th new streetcar in 2017.
nfitz
Superstar
What instrument requires the removal of all unaccessible vehicles in 2025? Not sure why 90% of the streetcar fleet being accessible is problem, when the buses aren't 100% accessible.
The most recent TTC fleet plan, calls for the final 48 ALRVs to be retired in 2024, which increases the number of Flexities needed to provide service from 218 to 255.
Hopefully they've added another 60 vehicles to the order by then - though the 2031 estimated requirement is 283 vehicles, not 264.
drum118
Superstar
I stand to be corrected, but all TTC high floor had lifts on them that comply to the ODA accessibility requirement and they were retire when the NovaBuses show up.
I believe it was around 2008 that MTO mandated all buses had to be lowfloor by 2011 and then moved to 2012 as systems were not willing to move accessibility buses. You every see someone use a bus lift as it sure piss me off when I saw one as it was putting the rider at risk of injury? Systems that still have HF are not accessibly.
TTC is already on notices that they want to order an addition 60 cars once the 60th car shows up. They have also stated more cars will be require on top of the 60 with no number for them as well time line a year or so ago.
Once TTC gets 264 cars, the yards are max out and another location would be needed for additional cars.
Unlike the USA ADA, our ODA has a drop dead date where things must fully comply with accessibly requirement 100%, regardless of cost. There are some areas that will never comply with the requirement and need wavers for them based on a case by case.
Back in 2005, I stated at a TTC meeting that I saw a fleet of 700 cars for TTC and X km of new tracks for the system and was laugh at. Today, we have 400 cars on order between TTC & Metrolinx with X km being built. If the current Transit City plan moves ahead as proposed, we will see close to the number of cars I call for as well km in Toronto back in 2005.
There are very few places in Toronto that will support a new yard for another 100-200 cars, with the Portland being the best location. A couple of location in Mimico requiring some extra off route tracks to them.
TTC needs to do a long range vision where it can build new lines and yards supporting its gauge or a plan to do it using standard gauge which will see the current system being rebuilt route by route and using some of Metrolinx yards. 512 would be the first line to be converted using the Eglinton Yard. Its a dog breakfast how to convert the existing system to standard gauge, but can be done over 5-10 years and done as tracks are to be rebuilt.
Steve X
Senior Member
The ALRVs are already falling apart now with a very low reliability rate. An average of 2500 km between failures means they spend a week on the road and they are back in the shop. I doubt the rebuilts would last very long. If the TTC can retire them and run slightly less service, they rather do that than spending a fortune on them. They can just run buses substitutes again when the Eglinton line opens in 2021. They are only rebuilding 60 cars cause they will get BBD to pay for them. No way will they spent a large amount to keep them running if it's coming directly from the TTC budgets.
TTC would need another yard in the 2020s. Hopefully they can pick up a small parcel of land to store 25 or so cars around St Clair. It doesn't need to be a full fledged carhouse, just something that can do daily inspections and rotate it with Leslie Barns when necessary. Although the Port lands have more space, they should not build another carhouse there. A major blockage or power outage would leave the streets dry. Probably better to have a new large carhouse in the west end.
By the mid 2020s, maybe we'll see more development along Lake Shore in Mimico and New Toronto's industrial sites. If development booms there, a network of new lines could be built along Queensway, Kipling South and etc. It would make more sense to have a new carhouse there. Plus there's the Waterfront LRT.
dowlingm
Senior Member
The TTC fleet plan ( https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/streetcarfleetplan_201601.pdf ) shows an active fleet (service + maintenance/spares) of 48 ALRVs until end 2023, and 19 CLRVs until 2019. Given recent developments, that CLRV number just moved to the right.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
With the Leslie Barns taking over the major maintenance on the new streetcars, Hillcrest could be converted to a sub-division to house and wash the St. Clair and Bathurst streetcars.