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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

dowlingm

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Wish it was clearer why they are choosing to refurb CLRVs than some of the remaining non-refurbed ALRVs. Presumably these ones are in *really* bad shape so not "worth" it, but 10 of them still need to run until 2019...
 

W. K. Lis

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There's a report at the next meeting of the TTC on the Overhaul of 30 Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRV) and Maintaining non-Overhauled Streetcars in a State of Good Repair at this link.

It is recommended that the Board approve:

1. Overhaul of thirty (30) Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRVs) as a Capital Project at an estimated final cost (EFC) of $9.1 million;

2. Refurbishment of critical mechanical, pneumatic and electrical components to maintain the non-overhauled CLRVs in a state of go
od repair at an operating cost of $17.5 million;

3. Refurbishment of critical mechanical, pneumatic and electrical components to maintain the non-overhauled ALRVs in a state of good repair at an operating cost of $7.5 million;

4. Staff to proceed with the identified work in advance of Council approval in order to meet and maintain Streetcar service;

5. Staff to accrue costs and apply these costs to future claims allowed for in the Bombardier Transportation contract under liquidated damages; and

6. Submission of this report to City of Toronto Council for approval.​
 

wolfewood

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Just to confirm, have any older streetcars been overhauled or rebuilt to a state of good repair yet? Obviously 30 CLRVs are about to but I feel like I remember reading that some ALRVs were repaired a while back. Am I remember right? And if I am, how much of the older LRV fleet will have been rebuilt due to Bombardier's delays?
 

nfitz

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Just to confirm, have any older streetcars been overhauled or rebuilt to a state of good repair yet? Obviously 30 CLRVs are about to but I feel like I remember reading that some ALRVs were repaired a while back. Am I remember right? And if I am, how much of the older LRV fleet will have been rebuilt due to Bombardier's delays?
Yes - 30 ALRVs are being rebuilt even more extensively than this new CLRV rebuilt. Including new floors.

See https://www.ttc.ca/News/2015/October/1015_streetcar_rebuild.jsp

I believe they've done 3 to date (4208, 4217, and 4249) with 3 more underway (4200, 4225, and 4229).

The new floors are the key way to identify them. Though I've only seen them from the outside so far - and haven't noticed anything different.
 

wolfewood

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Awesome, so we'll have 60 extra streetcars until the Bombardier order is done. So, on a more hypothetical note, what should we do with them after the order is completed? (That is, what should we be doing in 2035 :(:p) The 60 cars we keep won't be accessible so for general capacity we'd want newer cars but could the 60 be useful as rush hour trippers? Obviously it would suck if someone had mobility issues and got stuck in the rain or snow while everyone around them got on board an older car but it'd be a useful way to provide rush hour service from my uneducated perspective.
 

nfitz

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Here's the details on the new (January 30th) streetcar delivery timetable from the March 23 CRLV Rebuild report. It only sees 40 delivered in 2016, compared to the 63 we'd been promised (the original plus they'd promised the missing 13 from 2015 by mid-year).

Essentially, they are deferring 25 streetcars until 2019. Though my guess is they'll never exceed 40, and at best they will be delivering at least 30 cars in 2020.
upload_2016-3-16_17-22-47.png

Also the new March 23 CEO report gives information on the Flexity failure rate. Essentially 12,000 km compared to the contractual target of 35,000 km. Apparently they have until car 60 to get this right. Though given the glowing reviews that TTC keeps giving the quality of the new cars, presumably this is as-expected, and will improve.

To put this in perspective, the CLRVs are currently 3,870 km and the ALRVs are only 2,091 km.

upload_2016-3-16_17-30-2.png
 

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BayStBoi

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The new floors are the key way to identify them. Though I've only seen them from the outside so far - and haven't noticed anything different.

...also at the very back, the left side seats are singles vs. doubles on both sides like they used to be.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Here's the details on the new (January 30th) streetcar delivery timetable from the March 23 CRLV Rebuild report. It only sees 40 delivered in 2016, compared to the 63 we'd been promised (the original plus they'd promised the missing 13 from 2015 by mid-year).

Essentially, they are deferring 25 streetcars until 2019. Though my guess is they'll never exceed 40, and at best they will be delivering at least 30 cars in 2020.
View attachment 70058

Also the new March 23 CEO report gives information on the Flexity failure rate. Essentially 12,000 km compared to the contractual target of 35,000 km. Apparently they have until car 60 to get this right. Though given the glowing reviews that TTC keeps giving the quality of the new cars, presumably this is as-expected, and will improve.

To put this in perspective, the CLRVs are currently 3,870 km and the ALRVs are only 2,091 km.

View attachment 70061

Is there a financial penalty if BBD doesn't meet the target?
 

TheTigerMaster

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OMG, I know at this point it's beating a dead horse, but that article is 10 months old already - Classic BBD quote:

“Yes we have in this case had issues in Thunder Bay, we have had issues in Mexico. But right now the main point for us is that we have been open about these, and now we can clearly say they are items that are in the past. We were working on correcting them. Now they are corrected,” he said, adding that the company is committed to the new delivery schedule that specifies the TTC will have 30 vehicles by the end of this year.

I'm pretty sure the Iraqi information minister is working for BBD PR now:

07-minister.jpg
 

TheTigerMaster

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The CEO report show the new cars are failing a lot sooner than they are supposed to: New Streetcar Mean Distance Between Failures Jan 2016 12,044 km 35,000 km
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2016/March_23/Reports/Chief_Executive_Officer's_Report_March_2016_Update.pdf
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2016/March_23/Reports/Overhaul_of_30_Canadian_Light_Rail_Vehicles_(CLRV)_and_Maint.pdf

With luck, TTC should have 17 extra cars than now come the EX to maintain cars on all 4 routes though they will not be 100%.

Never forget:

The first of the 204 new streetcars — price tag: $1.2 billion — were so flawed that the TTC simply couldn’t risk putting them into service because they would almost certainly break down on Toronto streets, he said.

Parts produced in Mexico were so poorly made that they couldn’t be properly assembled in Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant, where attempts to rivet badly cut walls and under-frames were rejected by the TTC.

I hope that delivering crap like this isn't standard in the train industry.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Is prioritising 514 over 511 for low floors a mistake, given the Ex?

EDIT: hmm, maybe not since that does give an accessible* streetcar route from Dufferin Loop and not merely Union.

My guess would be thath it's easier for them to use the new ones for a new route as they don't have to make up signs to put in the windows of existing cars as I really doubt they are going to put in brand new roll signs for cars they are going to scrap. It would be like the putting signs for the sheppard line on the H series of subway trains/ Plus as pointed out in the report it would give them another accessible rout east to west as the only one currently in downtown is the wesley bus

Additionally, last year the TTC made substantial deployment changes to the LFLRVs, and some streetcar route changes, for the CNE.

If memory serves, LFLRVs were 100% removed from 510, and reallocated entirely to 509 and 511 to serve the CNE. Additionally, the 510 Union branch was cancelled, all 510 service terminated at Queen's Quay and Spadina (don't recall if they still did turns at Charlotte or if 100% was to QQ), and 509 service ramped up even more than usual for the CNE to account for the dropped 510 Union branch.

Conceivably they might do something similar this year--keep some LFLRVs running 514 out of Dufferin Loop, then use some LFLRVs from Spadina for increased 509 service with the 510 Union branch cut once again, and possibly even leave Spadina with only a couple of LFLRVs moving a few onto 511 as well, if it hasn't received any by then.

Definitely a lot of different ways they could handle it.

That was during the pan am games not the EX, During the Ex all service was as it normally is. They only had LFRVS on 509. 511 was served by ALRVS and CLRVs like normal For the Panam games they put a couple of the LFRVS on 511 and took them off of 510 and shortened the route because they didn't have enough of them at that point to have the full route of 510 in service and have them on Bathurst. I think at that point they only had about 6 in service on any given day with 2 on each of the three routes.
 

dowlingm

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Awesome, so we'll have 60 extra streetcars until the Bombardier order is done. So, on a more hypothetical note, what should we do with them after the order is completed? (That is, what should we be doing in 2035 :(:p) The 60 cars we keep won't be accessible so for general capacity we'd want newer cars but could the 60 be useful as rush hour trippers? Obviously it would suck if someone had mobility issues and got stuck in the rain or snow while everyone around them got on board an older car but it'd be a useful way to provide rush hour service from my uneducated perspective.
C/ALRVs to be withdrawn in 2024 per AODA legislation, no matter how much life is left in them by then (give or take a few units for heritage use, if that happens)
 

Steve X

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C/ALRVs to be withdrawn in 2024 per AODA legislation, no matter how much life is left in them by then (give or take a few units for heritage use, if that happens)
I highly doubt the CLRVs or ALRVs would last till 2024. It's just for the next few years, they are short of streetcars. Right now we have buses on the 502, 503 and 504 cause BBD can't deliver.

They also shouldn't be taking the new cars from Spadina for the EX this year. They deem the 510 accessible so new cars should make up most of the runs.

Never forget:

The first of the 204 new streetcars — price tag: $1.2 billion — were so flawed that the TTC simply couldn’t risk putting them into service because they would almost certainly break down on Toronto streets, he said.

Parts produced in Mexico were so poorly made that they couldn’t be properly assembled in Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant, where attempts to rivet badly cut walls and under-frames were rejected by the TTC.

I hope that delivering crap like this isn't standard in the train industry.
BBD tried to push these out the door so they can deliver them on time. Good thing TTC knew better and forced them to fix everything before it even leaves the property. Clearly their Mexico operations is so horrible, even China does better.
 

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