TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

I think a huge, huge part of the problem is that because of the legal battle between the TTC and Bombardier, Bombardier can't be transparent about what's actually, specifically going on, so people come up with these fantastic theories about how they have board meetings rubbing their hands together trying to figure out the best way to make everyone in Toronto miserable.

One, they'd royally screwed up, before the lawsuit.

Two, they've come out with at least 2, and probably 3, completely fictional schedules since the lawsuit - so they are hardly keeping quiet. They continue to act in bad faith.

Ultimately, the solution is that TTC needs to award this to the next lowest bidder, and then have the court force Bombardier to pay TTC the difference between the $5 million per car that Bombardier bid, and what the next bidder bid (about $7.5 million per car). This is pretty standard, and TTC has gone to the Supreme Court of Canada with previous contractors to force exactly that solution.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

London's none too please either with them http://business.financialpost.com/n...eful-tube-project-nothing-short-of-a-disaster

“If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is,” the report concludes.

Apparently bombardier only sells snake oil nowadays. Buyer beware.

 

[Steve X]

“If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is,” the report concludes.

Apparently bombardier only sells snake oil nowadays. Buyer beware.

The fun fact is Bombardier is awarded a contact (as part of the current consortium) to install that ATO system (CITYFLO 650) on the Eglinton Crosstown that would be compatible with the Bombardier Flexity Freedom. Mahahhahah

2021: No trains and not signalling systems. Double screwed!

Source: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...bardier-abandon-tube-signalling-contract.html
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...ivision-further-expands-no.bombardiercom.html

And they'll maintain them too. If there is any to maintain:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...ivision-further-expands-no.bombardiercom.html

 

[drum118]

One, they'd royally screwed up, before the lawsuit.

Two, they've come out with at least 2, and probably 3, completely fictional schedules since the lawsuit - so they are hardly keeping quiet. They continue to act in bad faith.

Ultimately, the solution is that TTC needs to award this to the next lowest bidder, and then have the court force Bombardier to pay TTC the difference between the $5 million per car that Bombardier bid, and what the next bidder bid (about $7.5 million per car). This is pretty standard, and TTC has gone to the Supreme Court of Canada with previous contractors to force exactly that solution.

There is no 2nd low bider in the real sense and far better to put the contract out for re-tender with the additional 60 cars as an option.

If we go the way you are stating, its going to cost about an extra $470 million US to Bombardier and no chump change. At the same time, can they delivery any cars before 2020 since they have 2 huge contracts that got them book up to 2020 plus now???

If you go to a real tender, contract would start in 2017 with the first prototype car showing up about 2019 and maybe production cars late 2019 or early 2020.

You never know who is real hungry for this contract until you but it out to tender and you may get cars here sooner than later. In fact, it may save Bombardier money even with the law suite based on the low tender.

Where in the mix is Metrolinx order?? That could be full fill by someone else not doing TTC cars. Mississauga Cars has to be a P3 bid open to everyone.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The fun fact is Bombardier is awarded a contact (as part of the current consortium) to install that ATO system (CITYFLO 650) on the Eglinton Crosstown that would be compatible with the Bombardier Flexity Freedom. Mahahhahah

2021: No trains and not signalling systems. Double screwed!

Source: http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...bardier-abandon-tube-signalling-contract.html
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...ivision-further-expands-no.bombardiercom.html

And they'll maintain them too. If there is any to maintain:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...ivision-further-expands-no.bombardiercom.html

Oh boy, what a mess.

And it's starting to look like our streetcar production issues will spill over to the Metrolinx LRVs. I have no faith in BBD's ability to get that done.

 

[WislaHD]

I just don't know how Bombardier's national and international reputation isn't irreparably damaged at this point.

Why should anything in Canada choose to award them a contract in the future?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Why should anything in Canada choose to award them a contract in the future?

Because if Queen's Park is involved in the funding, they'll see helping the keep jobs in Thunder Bay (and Sahagún) as an essential part of the plan.

I would like to think that everyone here on UT wants to be proud of Bombardier, wants to see them as a global leader in delivering excellent transportation systems on time, on budget, correct to tender and design specifications. Had the streetcars been delivered on time, Bombardier would have been heralded as the best supplier to the TTC. We all want to bank a winner, and equally resent being associated with a purposeful loser.

 

[pstogios]

It's obvious BBD has zero credibility left. I'm wondering how much the TTC has left though. I understand that they have an irate public to deal with, and I believe Byford and Councillor Cole when they say they are angry, but shouldn't they be keeping their mouth shut and not communicating what is truly (yet another) laughable ramp up plan? It's come to the point where anything TTC publicly announces about streetcar rollout plans has little more credibility than BBD themselves.

Hopefully there won't be many dealings with BBD in the future, but being stuck with a TTC that has lost credibility in their supplier management is a lasting problem we will have.

EDIT: actually this could part of TTC's legal strategy. Communicate BBD's promises, and when they fail to deliver this is further proof they are acting in bad faith, then sue for damages.

 

[nfitz]

It's come to the point where anything TTC publicly announces about streetcar rollout plans has little more credibility than BBD themselves.

Though it seems there's a pattern to me. When TTC says that "Bombardier says" they don't believe a word of it. When they avoid that disclaimer, it's got a bigger chance of being realistic.

Which does make sense, as they do have someone in the plant in Thunder Bay, who'd know what exactly what the status was on the news few vehicles.

Hopefully there won't be many dealings with BBD in the future, but being stuck with a TTC that has lost credibility in their supplier management is a lasting problem we will have.

And yet BBD continues to deliver the TR trains relatively reliably (not perfect, but close enough to schedule) and also GO equipment, from the same plant.

Which does support the various comments, that it's a problem with the Mexico plant. So perhaps if the latest delay has them being revamping the process in Mexico to improve the quality issues there, I suppose perhaps we might be there. But given all the failures to date ...

EDIT: actually this could part of their legal strategy. Communicate BBD's promises, and when they fail to deliver this is further proof they are acting in bad faith, then collect damages.

Not impossible.

 

[Duck]

And yet BBD continues to deliver the TR trains relatively reliably (not perfect, but close enough to schedule) and also GO equipment, from the same plant.

Which does support the various comments, that it's a problem with the Mexico plant. So perhaps if the latest delay has them being revamping the process in Mexico to improve the quality issues there, I suppose perhaps we might be there. But given all the failures to date.

This is the most sensible post in the last few pages - thank you. I think a lot of people think that the TTC streetcar order is the only project Bombardier has on the go. It's not.

The TTC streetcar order is simply massive. 204 trains = 1020 cars, essentially. Even the new cta order isn't that large. I agree that the mistakes seem to be mostly on the management and communication end of things.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/london-...lls-blamed-for-ill-fated-bombardier-contract/

However today’s report claims senior managers were “only interested in presenting good news” and accuses them of being “in denial about the progress and effectiveness of the programme, allowing it to continue for much longer than it should have.”

“This is nothing short of a disaster for London. Neither TfL nor Bombardier’s management teams were up to the task of managing the programme, but it is Londoners that will ultimately pay the price in travel delays and inefficiencies.”

This should probably be in a Metrolinks/Crosstown thread but it's an interesting read. It almost parallels what Metrolinks is doing. If it does belong in the other thread please do move it there if required.



For those who like to know how secretive Bombardier is about the funding they receive from different government levels:
http://business.financialpost.com/n...about-how-much-government-funding-it-receives

 

[nfitz]

The TTC streetcar order is simply massive. 204 trains = 1020 cars, essentially. Even the new cta order isn't that large. I agree that the mistakes seem to be mostly on the management and communication end of things.

I don't think you can compare the 204 car order to 1020 cars - even comparing to the CLRV it's only equivalent to 408 cars in terms of length. A module isn't a car.

 

[Napoleon]

Just in case anyone wants to see what the "ramp-up" looks like in graphical form. This is the chart of delivery schedules assuming 4418 arrives on March 29th.

Just a note, there's a little bit of ambiguity with the exact delivery dates of the vehicles that came in around the new year.

 

[Steve X]

And yet BBD continues to deliver the TR trains relatively reliably (not perfect, but close enough to schedule) and also GO equipment, from the same plant.

Reliable but they were off scheduled too. It's just TTC didn't have the urgency for the needs the new trains as they do with the streetcars. They claim something like a train every week or so. Before that, they had the door manufacture go bankrupt and other manufacturing problems. The first of the TRs were suppose to arrive in 2009 and have the first 39 trains delivered in 2011 or so. The first train showed up a year late and delivery of the first order didn't finish until 2013.

They were obviously late compared to what they claim in their bid but not disastrous as with these streetcars.

 

[Steve X]

I don't think you can compare the 204 car order to 1020 cars - even comparing to the CLRV it's only equivalent to 408 cars in terms of length. A module isn't a car.

The new streetcars only have 3 powered bogie compared to the CLRVs which had 2 powered bogies. It's not even a fair comparison to say 204 Flexitys is equivalent to 408 CLRVs. The articulated joints do need more work to assemble through.