TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

Any update on when the next round of new streetcars will arrive? They only have four right now right (with two being demo models that went back)?

They have two right now. And the two prototypes still owned by Bombardier, that need to go back to Thunder Bay for modifications. There's one (4404) that may be shipped relatively soon, so might see service late October, early November. And perhaps 2 more (4405 and 4406) that will be shipped later this year to see any service this year. I doubt that 4407 will be in service until 2015, or 4401 and 4402.

How much did the strike delay things?

Well 4403 arrived in early June and 4400 arrived in July. I'd say 3 months is about how much of a delay we had. If they had things running properly we'd be getting 9 deliveries between now and 2015. We'll be lucky to get 3 delivered at this rate - perhaps 4 if 4407 makes it.

 

[spider]

Other cities have identifed areas where lines should be buried (tourist areas, shopping districts and restaurant districts). When the road is torn up they bury the lines. Not expensive...the lines should be replaced anyways. But this coordinated approach you would expect from a public utility. But it is uncoordinated and that's the issue that a lot of people have.

This has been discussed before on UT, the undergrounding of the Hydro conductors you see on a pole line in the street is not too expensive once the road is ripped up and requires repaving but the devil is in the connections to all the buildings along the way. Besides switching from an aerial to an underground entrance to each building and who pays for this work you have to decide whether the Hydro service should connect to customers whose 1910 style wiring will in many cases need tens of thousands of dollars in updating (think knob and tube).

 

[Johnny Au]

I went on the new streetcars today at Spadina station. It is very clean, very quiet, and has air conditioning. There are some floor-to-ceiling windows as well.

 

[pstogios]

two prototypes still owned by Bombardier, that need to go back to Thunder Bay for modifications.

We have been saying this for a long time now. We should be getting impatient about this.

1) are 4401 and 4402 actually in Thunder Bay now? If not, why the heck not?

2) how long will the modifications on 4401 and 4402 take? If it is very long, why????

 

[nfitz]

We have been saying this for a long time now. We should be getting impatient about this.

Should we? I'm not sure why.

1) are 4401 and 4402 actually in Thunder Bay now?

I don't think so. I saw one pass me a few days ago. And I thought someone sighted both of them together recently.

If not, why the heck not?

Because Bombardier agreed to loan them to TTC for training and testing, so that TTC could keep both of their units in service on Spadina. Have the replacement modules even arrived in Thunder Bay yet?

2) how long will the modifications on 4401 and 4402 take? If it is very long, why????

4400 took about 6 months or so. I'd guess 3 to 6 months. So not very long at all.

 

[Platform 27]

We should be getting impatient about this.

You may have just discovered one of the least constructive strings of seven words possible in the English language.

1) are 4401 and 4402 actually in Thunder Bay now? If not, why the heck not?

Because Bombardier agreed to loan them to TTC for training and testing, so that TTC could keep both of their units in service on Spadina. Have the replacement modules even arrived in Thunder Bay yet?

No special insider intelligence here, but I'd speculate that when 4404 gets here, one of 4401 or 4402 goes onto the delivery car and heads back to Thunder Bay, and when 4405 gets here, the other one goes back. That way, TTC keeps two extra streetcars in Toronto at all times for driver training, as well as permitting each new vehicle to rack up the required 600 km of non-revenue test time we heard about.

 

[TOareaFan]

You may have just discovered one of the least constructive strings of seven words possible in the English language.




No special insider intelligence here, but I'd speculate that when 4404 gets here, one of 4401 or 4402 goes onto the delivery car and heads back to Thunder Bay, and when 4405 gets here, the other one goes back. That way, TTC keeps two extra streetcars in Toronto at all times for driver training, as well as permitting each new vehicle to rack up the required 600 km of non-revenue test time we heard about.

I agree.....the fact that they are still here is probably because of the strike.....keeps the training program going.

Anyone know if when they get upgraded and return...do they still have to do another 600kms of travel? or are they good to go right into service upon return?

 

[smallspy]

No special insider intelligence here, but I'd speculate that when 4404 gets here, one of 4401 or 4402 goes onto the delivery car and heads back to Thunder Bay, and when 4405 gets here, the other one goes back. That way, TTC keeps two extra streetcars in Toronto at all times for driver training, as well as permitting each new vehicle to rack up the required 600 km of non-revenue test time we heard about.

Unless Bombardier somehow gets their butts in gear and ships a dozen cars before the end of the year, 4401 and 4402 aren't going to be converted for a little while yet. There are still many operators and maintenance people that need to be trained, and if all of the cars are in use for service, you can't use them for training, right?

As for using 4404 and 4405 for training and break-in, not possible or permitted. The 600km of non-revenue running must be done before a vehicle is accepted by the Commission - and only once that happens can the vehicle be used for training. 4401 and 4402 are special in that they have Bombardier staff on them whenever they are being used by the TTC, despite not being accepted for revenue service.

Anyone know if when they get upgraded and return...do they still have to do another 600kms of travel? or are they good to go right into service upon return?

They are getting a bunch of hardware and software upgrades while up in Thunder Bay so yes, they'll need to do the 600km of running without faults before being accepted for revenue service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Unless Bombardier somehow gets their butts in gear and ships a dozen cars before the end of the year, 4401 and 4402 aren't going to be converted for a little while yet. There are still many operators and maintenance people that need to be trained, and if all of the cars are in use for service, you can't use them for training, right?

As for using 4404 and 4405 for training and break-in, not possible or permitted. The 600km of non-revenue running must be done before a vehicle is accepted by the Commission - and only once that happens can the vehicle be used for training. 4401 and 4402 are special in that they have Bombardier staff on them whenever they are being used by the TTC, despite not being accepted for revenue service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Wouldn't the 600km break in period as new cars arrive double as training for the staff that are doing the breaking in?

 

[smallspy]

Wouldn't the 600km break in period as new cars arrive double as training for the staff that are doing the breaking in?

It can't, because they aren't allowed to drive the cars until they have been accepted for revenue service. They aren't technically owned by the TTC until they are accepted.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[doug]

This has been discussed before on UT, the undergrounding of the Hydro conductors you see on a pole line in the street is not too expensive once the road is ripped up and requires repaving

It's been discussed a lot, and you all fail to understand that it's not possible to just bury overhead high voltage lines without redesigning the system.
Underground lines must operate at a lower voltage/higher current to maintain the same capacity as high voltage, air insulated lines.

 

[spider]

air insulated lines

Doug, I think you mean air cooled lines, that black stuff you see on aerial conductors is not insulation it is weatherproofing. Underground conductors do not have the separation we see on aerial construction so they need to be heavily insulated and cooled.

 

[pstogios]

You may have just discovered one of the least constructive strings of seven words possible in the English language.

It's not my role as a consumer of transit to be "constructive". It is to demand and expect efficiency and service from the TTC and through them, Bombardier. If Bombardier can't fulfill their obligations to the TTC in terms of delivering the new streetcars as scheduled, they deserve to be penalized.

As for using 4404 and 4405 for training and break-in, not possible or permitted. The 600km of non-revenue running must be done before a vehicle is accepted by the Commission - and only once that happens can the vehicle be used for training. 4401 and 4402 are special in that they have Bombardier staff on them whenever they are being used by the TTC, despite not being accepted for revenue service.

Thank you for this explanation.

If I understand things correctly, this is where we stand right now:

1. 4401 and 4402 are currently being used for training purposes.
2. When 4404 and 4405 arrive, 4401 and 4402 will be sent back to Bombardier for upgrades.
3. 4404 and 4405 will then be used as training vehicles.
4. When 4401 and 4402 are sent back, they will go into revenue service.
5. When 4406, 4407, etc arrive, 4404 and 4405 will go through this 600 km of non-revenue service.
6. Then 4404 and 4405 will go into revenue service.
7. repeat #5 and #6 for subsequent vehicles.

In other words, overall, we are looking at months for step #2 (arrival of 4404 and 4405), months for step #3, until step #4 which is when we finally get more Flexities in revenue service.

Is that correct? Are we looking at 2015 here until we get a whiff of a new vehicle in revenue service?

 

[DSC]

I went on the new streetcars today at Spadina station. It is very clean, very quiet, and has air conditioning. There are some floor-to-ceiling windows as well.

Well, that's good to know. Seems they match all the many photos on this thread. :->

 

[smallspy]

It's not my role as a consumer of transit to be "constructive". It is to demand and expect efficiency and service from the TTC and through them, Bombardier. If Bombardier can't fulfill their obligations to the TTC in terms of delivering the new streetcars as scheduled, they deserve to be penalized.

And just like with the delays to the TR subway cars, they have been and will continue to be penalized.

Thank you for this explanation.

If I understand things correctly, this is where we stand right now:

1. 4401 and 4402 are currently being used for training purposes.

Correct.

2. When 4404 and 4405 arrive, 4401 and 4402 will be sent back to Bombardier for upgrades.

Incorrect. There is no hard timeline for the return of 4401 and 4402 to Thunder Bay.

4404 and 4405 will be placed into revenue service once they have been accepted for revenue service by the Commission.

3. 4404 and 4405 will then be used as training vehicles.

Incorrect. 4401 and 4402 will continue to be used as training vehicles until such as point as it is deemed that they are no longer needed as such. At that point, they will then be sent back.

4. When 4401 and 4402 are sent back, they will go into revenue service.

Correct, but only after they have been run for ~600km without faults.

5. When 4406, 4407, etc arrive, 4404 and 4405 will go through this 600 km of non-revenue service.
6. Then 4404 and 4405 will go into revenue service.
7. repeat #5 and #6 for subsequent vehicles.

In other words, overall, we are looking at months for step #2 (arrival of 4404 and 4405), months for step #3, until step #4 which is when we finally get more Flexities in revenue service.

Is that correct? Are we looking at 2015 here until we get a whiff of a new vehicle in revenue service?

It may be that we don't get another vehicle into revenue service until 2015 depending on how long it takes Bombardier to get the next couple of vehicles out of the factory. Or if the TTC's inspectors at the factory find too many faults with them. Or they find too many faults once the units have arrived in Toronto. Or if they fail to rack up the ~600km of running without failures.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.