ehlow
Senior Member
Has there ever been a study on whether removing stops improves travel times on Spadina?
|
|
|
Has there ever been a study on whether removing stops improves travel times on Spadina?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I don't think stops need to be removed on 510. One of the most attractive things about the line are the frequent stops. If you want a line with wider spacing Line 1 is only a few hundred meters away.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
I don't think so, and the stops on Spadina are there at the request of residents living in the corridor.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The NIMBYs on both Spadina and St. Clair didn't want stops removed when the right-of-ways were to be constructed. We'll have the same or similar sort of fight with any new transit project like the DRL, whether to many local stations or fewer express stations.
Last edited:
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I would love to see one of the new Flexity Outlook streetcars (440x) that are not running, to be "stored" on Roncesvalles Avenue during the Polish Festival, September 13 and 14.
LNahid2000
Senior Member
I think I could do it in 3 to 4 minutes (it's only 300m)...you don't seem like a very fast walker.
nfitz
Superstar
It's 350 metres from the south side stop on Sussex to the Bloor line - which remember is about 70 metres north of Bloor. Based on average walking speed that's a 5-minute walk, including crossing Bloor - some people will be faster, and some people will be slower. If one just misses the pedestrian crossing at Bloor it's a minute or two just waiting.
And then you have to enter the fare gates at the subway, and go down to the platform. 7 minutes isn't unreasonable. Sure, one could do it faster - but that's not the point really, is it?
ksun
Senior Member
only in Toronto walking 350 meters is SUCH a huge deal.
Despite all the argument, it is really less about the handicapped or 80 years olds than about those are simply feel too lazy to walk 3 minutes thinking "It would be nice to have a stop exactly where I want to go" and using the handicapped as a convenience excuse.
Honestly during your entire transit taking experience, how often do you really see a passenger who simply look like he/she can't walk for 5 minutes in Toronto? I have never.
who doesn't want a stop right in front of their door? Scarborough residents want 3 subways too, should that happen? And I am sure those who live between Eglinton, Lawrence, and Yokmills station all want a stop in between those stations. Should we all satisfy them?
You have to consider efficiency.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
If you can't walk at least 1000 meters, you really should avoid public transit in my opinion.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I am no transit planner...but isn't the art of stop spacing at least partly about how far people will walk to take a stop rather than how far they can walk?
So, downtown, trips are often shorter in nature, so if transit stops were really far apart you would get the "I already walked, 1000m, I was only going 1,500m....now if I take that bus/streetcar, I will be 500m past where I was going and would have to walk that far back (ie. I would have walked 1,500 m anyway)"
In the end everyone makes their own personal judgements about their own efficient use of time/energy. When I am downtown I never take the subway for a trip of less than 3 stops but I know people who hop on and off......the streetcar I use most often is the King Car....from my base here at King and U I never take it unless a) weather is awful or b) I am going a decent distance west of Spadina (quite often even Bathurst becomes my measure in heavier traffic) as that seems to be the efficient thing for me.
I always got/get the sense there is much art as science involved.......with the goal of optimizing system efficiency and ridership. Wide stop spacing might just make the vehicles move faster.....but at the cost of what ridership?
So, downtown, trips are often shorter in nature, so if transit stops were really far apart you would get the "I already walked, 1000m, I was only going 1,500m....now if I take that bus/streetcar, I will be 500m past where I was going and would have to walk that far back (ie. I would have walked 1,500 m anyway)"
In the end everyone makes their own personal judgements about their own efficient use of time/energy. When I am downtown I never take the subway for a trip of less than 3 stops but I know people who hop on and off......the streetcar I use most often is the King Car....from my base here at King and U I never take it unless a) weather is awful or b) I am going a decent distance west of Spadina (quite often even Bathurst becomes my measure in heavier traffic) as that seems to be the efficient thing for me.
I always got/get the sense there is much art as science involved.......with the goal of optimizing system efficiency and ridership. Wide stop spacing might just make the vehicles move faster.....but at the cost of what ridership?
AlbertHWagstaff
Senior Member
The YUS platform is another block up to Lowther. You have to get down to the mezzanine and walk the passageway and then some to get to the north- and southbound platforms. Sussex to the YUS platforms is probably more than 500 metres in total so the 7 minutes is definitely not unreasonable.
ksun
Senior Member
I explicitly said the entire TTC streetcar/most bus stops every 200 meters. Yet you pointed out one or two lines that have short spacing in London, a city 3 times our sizes with much higher ridership, yet complain other north American cities are not comparable due to lower ridership. Even London's 144m spacing is trumped by our 80-90m cases for Richmond-Queen or Victoria/Yonge, another evidence that TTC spacing is way too close.
try read this
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/11/san-francisco-a-rational-stop-spacing-plan.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2011/04/basics-walking-distance-to-transit.html
Quote " In Australia, and in most parts of Europe that I've observed, local-stop services generally stop every 400m (1/4 mile, 1320 feet). "
"transit planners generally observe that the walking distance that most people seem to tolerate -- the one beyond which ridership falls off drastically -- is about 400m (around 1/4 mi) for a local-stop service, and about 1000m (around 3/5 mi) for a very fast, frequent, and reliable rapid transit service. (I, personally, will walk further than this. You may not be willing to walk even this far, but as an approximation the 400m rule for local service seems to work pretty well.)"
Seems that it is pretty reasonable to have 400m spacing as local service and 1000m spacing as express service. Even Europe functions like that, are we saying Toronto just have some kind of special needs that requires much shorter spacing? We seem to think 200M is appropriate for local service as shown on Queen, King, Spadina etc. 400m generally is consistent with what most of us feel comfortable. It is the distance between King and Queen or Dundas and Queen, a very short walk 99.5% people will be able to do. I don't think the need from that 0.5% justifies another stop at Richmond or Sullivan, do you?
Tell me, what makes Toronto so unique that requires 200M local space compared with denser European cities? For Christ sake, The BD line is more like 400-500 spacing, which is more appropriate for bus/streetcars, and we all know the neighbourhoods near BD line are not that dense at all.
ksun
Senior Member
No, most people would prefer walking as little as possible, don't they? So how much they WANT to walk is not a good standard because otherwise, everyone along a transit line would WANT a stop less than 100 meters away from their door. It should be more about at what threshold they would give up transit and choose to drive or not going at all. 1000m is a bit too far of course, but I would think 500m is completely reasonable, isn't it?
Just think about this, how many people will think "I refuse to take the streetcar to Kensington market because Nassau stop is removed, and I have to walk all the way from College st., a whopping distance of 230M". I think the number of those people are close to zero. The same goes for many stops along 501, 504 and 505, 512. I am sure some won't be happy if some stops are removed, but in a purely selfish way (now I have to walk 1-2 minutes more, damn it), but given the still quite reasonable distance, 99% of them will still take the system, as the alternative isn't exactly appealing (driving and paying for parking DT?)
Agree. This is why the metropass should be done away with as many will take the subway/streetcar for 1 or 2 stops when walking is completely easy, and causing unnecessary burden to the system. 1500m is about the distance I am comfortable walking. More than that, I will take the streetcar (although not necessarily faster).
You are talking as if wider spacing will only reduce ridership because people need to walk 2 more minutes to the stop.
What about this: there could be more ridership due to wider spacing because there are fewer stops and the streetcar actually moves faster than walking now? Say if I want to go from Yonge st to Spadina along Queen, it usually walk as it takes 15 minutes or so. Taking the 501 would take probably the same time, or a couple of minutes less because there are like 2 dozen stops involved, so why bother? Or for longer distance, because the streetcars/buses now move faster, people who would otherwise driver may decide to take the transit?
It is really not a one way street.
Last edited:
P23
Active Member
I live above the 1 line platform and buy beer at Sussex and it takes like 6 minutes, this is perfectly acceptable. The TTC is just overly generous with their stop spacing.
People need to keep in mind, you might save time by having a stop right outside your home, but you lose that time with excessive stops. Not really buying the infirmity argument, if you can't walk 6 minutes you have some serious issues.
ksun
Senior Member
someone is making sense here.
all this "What about the senior/pregnant" concern is really more about "I don't want to walk 2 more minutes as that will be a minor inconvenience for me personally". Pregnant women who will deliver in two days will have no trouble walking that distance. Seniors who simply can't walk for 5 minutes, well, I can only say it is too dangerous for them to be outside in the city to start with! Transit shouldn't be planned based on the needs of 87 years olds who can hardly walk, should it?