H
Hydrogen
Guest
My hat's off to Hume for managing to find fault with something that has yet to happen.
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Crumbums.
I just found out that the Siemens Ride the CombinoPlus contest I entered to win a trip to Lisbon (ostensibly to see their LRT in service there - that should take 2 minutes) has resulted in me winning instead one of 250 TTC day passes they're giving out as second prizes!
Now I have to spend my own money to go to Portugal? I have to save up? I want my Pousada in the Algarve now!
Oh wait, I know, I'll use the Day Pass to take the subway and Airport Rocket to YYZ, getting me part way to Portugal for free.
Woohoo! Every cloud has a silver lining...
42
I just found out that the Siemens Ride the CombinoPlus contest I entered to win a trip to Lisbon (ostensibly to see their LRT in service there - that should take 2 minutes) has resulted in me winning instead one of 250 TTC day passes they're giving out as second prizes!
Now I have to spend my own money to go to Portugal? I have to save up? I want my Pousada in the Algarve now!
Oh wait, I know, I'll use the Day Pass to take the subway and Airport Rocket to YYZ, getting me part way to Portugal for free.
Woohoo! Every cloud has a silver lining...
42
ShonTron
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Was that an email or a phone call?
I'm holding out hope that it's me that wins the Siemens prize. I want to fly on someone else's dime for a change! As a Metropass holder, I wonder what I'd do with a day pass.
I'm holding out hope that it's me that wins the Siemens prize. I want to fly on someone else's dime for a change! As a Metropass holder, I wonder what I'd do with a day pass.
Email.
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42
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Low floors will give bumpy ride, new bidder for streetcars says
Partial low-floor design would be better, Dusseldorf-based manufacturer advises TTC
JEFF GRAY
November 9, 2007
Toronto is taking a risk on an unproven technology for its next generation of streetcars that would make for a bumpier ride and more breakdowns, according to a new competitor for the up-to-$1.4-billion contract.
The Toronto Transit Commission and other firms bidding for the contract insist that the ground-hugging "100-per-cent low-floor" design specification is reliable and will be better for all passengers, including the disabled.
With an eye on the TTC's expected demands for Canadian content, Dusseldorf-based Vossloh Kiepe is to announce today that it is teaming up with auto and bus parts manufacturer Martinrea International Inc., based in Vaughan, Ont., to compete for the contract. Other firms that have expressed interest in building 204 light-rail vehicles to replace the TTC's current iconic fleet include Montreal's Bombardier, Germany's Siemens, Czech-based Skoda and the French firm Alstom.
The winner may be called upon to build even more new vehicles if the city's ambitious light-rail expansion plans go ahead.
Peter Maass, president of Vossloh Kiepe's Canadian arm - which has only a handful of employees, says the TTC's recent decision to restrict the competition to designs for 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles is a bad move, because the new technology is unreliable and produces a much bumpier ride since passengers are closer to the ground.
"It is the roughest ride. When you are standing or sitting in it, you are getting this jarring right up your spine, like you wouldn't believe," Mr. Maass said in an interview, adding that some cities in Europe are going back to partial low-floor designs. "... You feel like you are getting tossed around in the vehicle."
Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said 100-per-cent low-floor cars he has ridden offered a smooth ride, with the exception of one in Helsinki, where he believed the track system may have been partly to blame.
"I have ridden low-floor streetcars all over the world. ... All of them were perfectly comfortable," Mr. Giambrone said.
TTC engineers believe the 100-per-cent low-floor cars are better for passenger flow, and because they lack stairs, reduce the chances of customers tripping on board. They have also concluded that, while the design will be challenging, 100-per-cent low-floor cars may actually be better on the system's unusually tight turns, and less likely to derail than partial low-floor vehicles.
Mr. Maass said his firm will offer the TTC a completely low-floor vehicle if asked, but will try to persuade the transit agency next week to allow it to bid with a 70-per-cent low-floor car based on one it helped build for the German city of Leipzig.
Partial low-floor vehicles use traditional light-rail technology, raised like the current TTC fleet at the front and back, but with a lower middle section for disabled passengers to board.
To make the entire car low-floor means making its propulsion system and other components much smaller, Mr. Maass said, requiring "experimental" technology that can break down. He added that getting such a radical new design to work on the TTC's tracks, which have extremely tight turns and steep hills compared with many European systems, will be an added challenge.
Certainly, Siemens - considered one of the front-runners for the TTC's streetcar deal, along with Bombardier - has had many problems with its 100-per-cent low-floor light-rail vehicles in Europe in recent years, after it emerged that the streetcars' frames were cracking from the strain of the new design.
The debacle with the firm's Combino model - forerunner of the modified Combino Plus that it intends to offer Toronto - forced the German transportation giant to recall hundreds of light-rail vehicles from European cities over the past five years, costing it as much as $500-million.
Mario Péloquin, Siemens director of business development for Canada, said the Combino's problems has been solved, and he strongly denied the charge that low-floor technology is flawed.
"... It is proven technology," he said in an interview, adding that the trend is clearly toward 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles.
Mr. Péloquin disagreed that the cars give a jarring, bumpy ride: "As a passenger, you can feel more what's happening on track below the train. But I wouldn't say it is bumpy. There's been a lot of technological advancements."
Bombardier Transportation vice-president Mike Hardt also stood by the 100-per-cent low-floor design, which his firm plans to offer the TTC.
Bombardier was embroiled in a controversy during the last major TTC purchase, when the transit agency made a $674-million deal with the firm to build 234 new subway cars without accepting bids from other companies to protect jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. This time, the TTC is accepting bids, but may include Canadian-content provisions.
Partial low-floor design would be better, Dusseldorf-based manufacturer advises TTC
JEFF GRAY
November 9, 2007
Toronto is taking a risk on an unproven technology for its next generation of streetcars that would make for a bumpier ride and more breakdowns, according to a new competitor for the up-to-$1.4-billion contract.
The Toronto Transit Commission and other firms bidding for the contract insist that the ground-hugging "100-per-cent low-floor" design specification is reliable and will be better for all passengers, including the disabled.
With an eye on the TTC's expected demands for Canadian content, Dusseldorf-based Vossloh Kiepe is to announce today that it is teaming up with auto and bus parts manufacturer Martinrea International Inc., based in Vaughan, Ont., to compete for the contract. Other firms that have expressed interest in building 204 light-rail vehicles to replace the TTC's current iconic fleet include Montreal's Bombardier, Germany's Siemens, Czech-based Skoda and the French firm Alstom.
The winner may be called upon to build even more new vehicles if the city's ambitious light-rail expansion plans go ahead.
Peter Maass, president of Vossloh Kiepe's Canadian arm - which has only a handful of employees, says the TTC's recent decision to restrict the competition to designs for 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles is a bad move, because the new technology is unreliable and produces a much bumpier ride since passengers are closer to the ground.
"It is the roughest ride. When you are standing or sitting in it, you are getting this jarring right up your spine, like you wouldn't believe," Mr. Maass said in an interview, adding that some cities in Europe are going back to partial low-floor designs. "... You feel like you are getting tossed around in the vehicle."
Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said 100-per-cent low-floor cars he has ridden offered a smooth ride, with the exception of one in Helsinki, where he believed the track system may have been partly to blame.
"I have ridden low-floor streetcars all over the world. ... All of them were perfectly comfortable," Mr. Giambrone said.
TTC engineers believe the 100-per-cent low-floor cars are better for passenger flow, and because they lack stairs, reduce the chances of customers tripping on board. They have also concluded that, while the design will be challenging, 100-per-cent low-floor cars may actually be better on the system's unusually tight turns, and less likely to derail than partial low-floor vehicles.
Mr. Maass said his firm will offer the TTC a completely low-floor vehicle if asked, but will try to persuade the transit agency next week to allow it to bid with a 70-per-cent low-floor car based on one it helped build for the German city of Leipzig.
Partial low-floor vehicles use traditional light-rail technology, raised like the current TTC fleet at the front and back, but with a lower middle section for disabled passengers to board.
To make the entire car low-floor means making its propulsion system and other components much smaller, Mr. Maass said, requiring "experimental" technology that can break down. He added that getting such a radical new design to work on the TTC's tracks, which have extremely tight turns and steep hills compared with many European systems, will be an added challenge.
Certainly, Siemens - considered one of the front-runners for the TTC's streetcar deal, along with Bombardier - has had many problems with its 100-per-cent low-floor light-rail vehicles in Europe in recent years, after it emerged that the streetcars' frames were cracking from the strain of the new design.
The debacle with the firm's Combino model - forerunner of the modified Combino Plus that it intends to offer Toronto - forced the German transportation giant to recall hundreds of light-rail vehicles from European cities over the past five years, costing it as much as $500-million.
Mario Péloquin, Siemens director of business development for Canada, said the Combino's problems has been solved, and he strongly denied the charge that low-floor technology is flawed.
"... It is proven technology," he said in an interview, adding that the trend is clearly toward 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles.
Mr. Péloquin disagreed that the cars give a jarring, bumpy ride: "As a passenger, you can feel more what's happening on track below the train. But I wouldn't say it is bumpy. There's been a lot of technological advancements."
Bombardier Transportation vice-president Mike Hardt also stood by the 100-per-cent low-floor design, which his firm plans to offer the TTC.
Bombardier was embroiled in a controversy during the last major TTC purchase, when the transit agency made a $674-million deal with the firm to build 234 new subway cars without accepting bids from other companies to protect jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. This time, the TTC is accepting bids, but may include Canadian-content provisions.
ShonTron
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- 9,055
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I made a comment (as did at least one other activer UT'er) in Steve Munro's blog about the 100% low-floor specification switch. There's a few good comments there.
I wonder if the 100% low-floor requirement come from the difficulties cramming people in on the Orion VIIs.
Except in extreme cases, people will not stand at the back of the low-floor buses, though this is for good reason - there’s few (if any) hand-holds, the 2+2 forward seating (where some seats are unusable by anyone taller than 5′0″, but that’s another story) makes it very cramped, and hard to move around. So is this the impetus? Can a low-grade ramp be acceptable, but not steps?
I also question why would the TTC change the specs mid-way through the RFP. It really makes little sense for such a big change in the required specs, as even the few usable off-the-shelf models don’t provide this. The change may even provoke (the already inevitable) suspicion about the entire process.
I wonder if the 100% low-floor requirement come from the difficulties cramming people in on the Orion VIIs.
Except in extreme cases, people will not stand at the back of the low-floor buses, though this is for good reason - there’s few (if any) hand-holds, the 2+2 forward seating (where some seats are unusable by anyone taller than 5′0″, but that’s another story) makes it very cramped, and hard to move around. So is this the impetus? Can a low-grade ramp be acceptable, but not steps?
I also question why would the TTC change the specs mid-way through the RFP. It really makes little sense for such a big change in the required specs, as even the few usable off-the-shelf models don’t provide this. The change may even provoke (the already inevitable) suspicion about the entire process.
CDL.TO
Moderator
It seems so ass-backwards. The TTC seems to have no interested in working with the companies to develop a design, but instead want to design it themselves and say "can you do this"?
Here's a pic of the interior of the Minneapolis cars which Bombardier wants to sell to the TTC. Notice the two little steps right at the end of the car with 3 or 4 rows of seats up the steps? That's what the TTC says we can't have, even though eliminating it creates issues for the streetcar designers.
Here's a pic of the interior of the Minneapolis cars which Bombardier wants to sell to the TTC. Notice the two little steps right at the end of the car with 3 or 4 rows of seats up the steps? That's what the TTC says we can't have, even though eliminating it creates issues for the streetcar designers.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
It's just so typically TTC. They just have to invent everything themselves. I wonder how many people they have on staff whose job is merely to replicate design and development work already done years ago at other organizations.
It's patently obvious that those steps are not an issue. I'd love to see the TTC adopt a more European design, though, since they're much more attractive than the American LRVs.
It's patently obvious that those steps are not an issue. I'd love to see the TTC adopt a more European design, though, since they're much more attractive than the American LRVs.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The interesting thing is the partial low-floor design is FAR more common in Europe than 100% low-floor. I have a sneaking suspicion that if we went and asked Giambrone to list the cities where he rode 100% low-floor trams he would end up mentioning places where the trams actually aren't 100%.
Unimaginative...
I know! I found that pic to illustrate the steps but I was taken aback by how 70s/80s the interior of those 5-year old cars look. I suspect the plexiglass and wooden/composite boards is what's giving me that impression.
Unimaginative...
I know! I found that pic to illustrate the steps but I was taken aback by how 70s/80s the interior of those 5-year old cars look. I suspect the plexiglass and wooden/composite boards is what's giving me that impression.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Here are some more cosmopolitan and contemporary interior options.
I'd love to see a Eurotram-style vehicle. I really don't get why the TTC isn't looking at this model, since it has a much tighter turning radius and can handle steeper grades. It's Bombardier's model for integration into an existing urban light-rail network.
I'd love to see a Eurotram-style vehicle. I really don't get why the TTC isn't looking at this model, since it has a much tighter turning radius and can handle steeper grades. It's Bombardier's model for integration into an existing urban light-rail network.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The wooden seats and sweeping curves of the handles of the new trams in Munich gave a good impression.
Zephyr
Active Member
^ These are better alternatives overall. Except that I can tell you firsthand that those with the wooden and wooden-like seats are not comfortable, and are prone to a particular type of vandalism.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Interesting. The point of vandalism is well taken, it seems to be more of an issue in NA than mainland Europe. I found them comfortable for the duration of my ride; they've curved to fit the human form.
ShonTron
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Funny, because many of the seats in many NA Metros outside of Canada are nicely cushioned - BART, Washington and MARTA have very comfy seats in their metros, cushioned and mostly forward/backward facing. Toronto has amongst the most uncomfortable seating of anywhere on the H-5 and T-1 subways and buses, the felt-like covers useless to soften the hardness of the seating. And having no shoulder room is annoying.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It's hard to tell from photos, but some of those models look like they have pretty narrow centre aisles...will human clogging be an issue?