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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

^^Is the plan then to turn the streetcar lines into honour system routes- where controllers patrol the lines? a la europe or the viva bus in York Region?

p5
 
I don't think I ever posted these, but here are some pics I took from the CNE of the two competing major players...

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Bombardier makes fabulous-looking streetcars for the European market, though. There's no reason why we couldn't order those. Obviously this is the design that the TTC prefers. They said it wasn't the final layout, so we might see a design that's a little more attractive and perhaps has more red and white TTC colours.
 
Why couldn't Bombardier display something more closely to what could actually be used (i.e. car width, operating from a regular curb, etc.)? At least the Siemens one more closely resembles what is possible.
 
German streetcar bid scores a 'nein'
Headshot of John Barber

JOHN BARBER

With a report from Jeff Gray

November 15, 2007

Three city councillors led by Norm Kelly, chairman of the planning committee, made an extraordinary appeal yesterday on behalf of German manufacturer Vossloh Kiepe GmbH to include the company in the bidding for a billion-dollar contract to replace the Toronto Transit Commission's streetcar fleet.

"In view of size and potential value of this contract, in our view the city should be trying to get as many options on the table as possible to be sure we have the best and most cost-effective vehicles for the next two or three decades," the councillors wrote in a letter to TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

The letter was also signed by Councillors Karen Stintz and Frank Di Giorgio, following revisions by Vossloh Kiepe lobbyist Arthur Potts.

The German company was hoping to persuade TTC engineers to alter the specifications for their preferred streetcar to accept a design that would include several internal staircases or ramps rather than flat floors. But after lengthy analysis of the performance of different designs, including those proposed by Vossloh Kiepe, TTC engineers decided to order streetcars with "100-per-cent low floor area throughout the vehicle."

"No internal steps will be permitted in the passenger compartment of the new vehicle," Stephen Lam, TTC superintendent of streetcar engineering, reported last month. The TTC is expected to issue the final Request for Proposals before the end of December.

The decision to exclude streetcars with internal staircases was made as a result of complicated technical requirements and public desire for more accessible streetcars, according to Mr. Giambrone.

Ms. Stintz, often cited as a potential mayoral candidate, said she signed the letter hoping to "broaden" the competition to include suppliers of equipment different from that preferred by TTC engineers.

"I'm not acting on behalf of a lobbyist," she said. "I think council should understand if there are trade-offs, and if there are, should know about it."

Mr. Lam, described by a colleague as "one of the best streetcar engineers in the world," set out the reasons for selecting low-floor streetcars in a detailed analysis published last month. Considering the advantages and disadvantages of both designs, it warned that vehicles of the design promoted by Vossloh Kiepe were more likely to derail than low-floor vehicles and would be insufficiently powerful to climb many hills on the Toronto system.

Extensive real-world experience with low-floor streetcars persuaded TTC engineers the design has "significant advantages and should be specified as the only acceptable vehicle configuration in the RFP," according to the report.

"I'm not questioning the engineers," said Ms. Stintz, adding that she had not read the engineering report before publicly demanding its expert authors reverse their position on the issue. "We need to understand what the trade-offs are."

Ms. Stintz said she did not meet with Mr. Potts, the Vossloh Kiepe lobbyist, before deciding to endorse the company's cause. For his part, Mr. Potts said he did not "directly" meet with Ms. Stintz. He did, however, work closely with Mr. Kelly and his staff to draft the letter and gain political support for it at city hall.

Councillor Joe Mihevc, a commission member, criticized Mr. Kelly for the initiative. The German company was just doing its job, he said. "But it's not Councillor Kelly's job to stump for them."

TTC chief general manager Gary Webster backed his engineers, saying partial low-floor streetcars capable of operating in Toronto would be unacceptably cluttered with internal stairways and ramps.

jbarber@globeandmail.com
 
^^Sounds as though Bombardier is one step closer to becoming the official streetcar provider for Transit City. Not that this will come as a surprise to anyone though.

Why is it that Bombardier won't or hasn't shown the models it sells in Europe to the TTC? Was this a TTC move? Or, is Bombardier peddling an outdated product?

p5
 
It's not really an outdated product. Just a different product. The ones they sell to Europe are a bit smaller and lighter, because they're built to adapt to existing urban streetcar-type networks. The vehicles that Bombardier is offering here are just as modern, but they are mainly used on more suburban, off-road light rail networks here in North America.
 
I have a question, are these streetcars going to be linked slinky style to produce longer lengths or are they going to be standard 1 shots like most buses are?
 
^^^ The Combino Plus cars have a couple of slinky sections per train.

It's tough, because I like supporting the local economy, but the Siemens one is nicer looking.
Bombardier will probably have most parts constructed overseas and only final assembly will take here, which will be like 5-10% of the entire process.

The Siemens cars blow away Bombardier in terms of design and style. If they don't end up buying from Siemens, I really hope we DON'T get Bombardier's model.
 

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