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TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses

dowlingm said:
We occasionally have discussion about “Metrolinx taking over TTC” but maybe their intervention is needed at other GTA municipalities is needed instead to not only create but push through change. Instead of providing bulk ordering to municipalities, they could provide a capacity agreement to them so that the Town would get transit and not get into the delivery/mode issues that they and their staff are clearly not equipped to get their arms around
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That exists already. It's up to the municipality to apply for funding or bid in those initiatives.
 
Amare said:
Another instance of the TTC going forward with buses (NovaBus eBuses) which very well prove to be lemons due to unnecessary pure political pressure and lofty aspirations. We already had a CNG mess, a hybrid-electric mess, and now a potential eBus mess if the NovaBus' do not perform well.

They procured 150 of those eBuses, but they are conveniently testing their performance AFTER placing an order for them. Big mistake. Although I realize this was done so they could secure federal funds, it's an extremely high risk move. In my view, they should have gone with a majority batch of New Flyer ebuses until they were satisfied with testing of the NovaBus'.
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I think the entire order of LSFE+ and XE40 NGs will be a sour one.

Electric busses haven't been proven for a high rate of operation the TTC provides like how diesels and hybrids have.

While the busses on paper have pretty decent mileages (300-400 KMs), I doubt they'll even come close to those numbers, especially in the winter and with the heavy crush loads routes regularly get.

We're going to end up with a fleet of lemons that will only be able to do a few runs per day before needing to run back to the garage for a charge. Theres also the question of how the TTC intends to replace the runs going back for a charge creating a crew/logistical nightmare.

I might even go as far to say that we'll get a few units and then convert the remaining order to hybrid powertrains as the problems will become too great, kind of like how the TTC converted the rest of their Orion NG/3G order to diesel only (and ordered diesel only for a decade later) after pushing too hard with early hybrid technology.

I don't think electric vehicles have matured to a point yet where they can reliably replace the diesels and hybrids we currently have, while supporting the same amount of in-service vehicle time as now.
 
yurt2022 said:
I might even go as far to say that we'll get a few units and then convert the remaining order to hybrid powertrains as the problems will become too great, kind of like how the TTC converted the rest of their Orion NG/3G order to diesel only (and ordered diesel only for a decade later) after pushing too hard with early hybrid technology.
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Nitpick: The hybrid orders were only converted to diesel after we already had 700 of the things running around here, it wasn't just a "few" units.

But yes, I share your skepticism. The TTC is historically known to enthusiastically bet on the wrong new technologies (CNG, hybrids). Maybe it will all be perfectly fine, but the fact that they're junking the perfectly serviceable 8100 series diesels rather than the NG hybrids which have been a thorn in the TTC's side since they arrived shows me it's not the city's finest minds involved in this project.
 
T3G said:
Nitpick: The hybrid orders were only converted to diesel after we already had 700 of the things running around here, it wasn't just a "few" units.

But yes, I share your skepticism. The TTC is historically known to enthusiastically bet on the wrong new technologies (CNG, hybrids). Maybe it will all be perfectly fine, but the fact that they're junking the perfectly serviceable 8100 series diesels rather than the NG hybrids which have been a thorn in the TTC's side since they arrived shows me it's not the city's finest minds involved in this project.
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It's more like DBNA didn't built a good bus more than Hybrids suck. There were so many defects on the Orions that they couldn't even profit from TTC's orders and went out of business.

I don't think NFI and Nova have defects close to what Orions were having but the battery technology has plateaued. They reached a point that they simply can't just throw more batteries on to increase the range. They need a new type of battery to provide more charge with the same weight. This looks more like a 10-20 years R&D (hopefully) than something imminent and isn't as simple as perfecting the hybrid tech. There's more research out there than ever before and hopefully they can find one that is manufacturable at a reasonable cost.

Meanwhile TTC's electric plan needs a gap filler. They cannot replace 2000 diesel/hybrid buses with 2000 electric buses. These buses would need a certain amount of time to charge. However the maintenance spares would drop as electric vehicles have less parts to service. I believe TTC is betting on this and we'll see how this goes. We'll probably see them move to seasonal schedules with shorter runs in the winter. It'll take them a few years to get things right.
 
Steve X said:
It's more like DBNA didn't built a good bus more than Hybrids suck. There were so many defects on the Orions that they couldn't even profit from TTC's orders and went out of business.

I don't think NFI and Nova have defects close to what Orions were having but the battery technology has plateaued. They reached a point that they simply can't just throw more batteries on to increase the range. They need a new type of battery to provide more charge with the same weight. This looks more like a 10-20 years R&D (hopefully) than something imminent and isn't as simple as perfecting the hybrid tech. There's more research out there than ever before and hopefully they can find one that is manufacturable at a reasonable cost.

Meanwhile TTC's electric plan needs a gap filler. They cannot replace 2000 diesel/hybrid buses with 2000 electric buses. These buses would need a certain amount of time to charge. However the maintenance spares would drop as electric vehicles have less parts to service. I believe TTC is betting on this and we'll see how this goes. We'll probably see them move to seasonal schedules with shorter runs in the winter. It'll take them a few years to get things right.
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Are you a subject matter expert or an engineer? Or are you just typing a bunch of random crap.
 
Steve X said:
They reached a point that they simply can't just throw more batteries on to increase the range. They need a new type of battery to provide more charge with the same weight.
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This is coming very quickly. There are at least 6 companies currently preparing assembly lines for solid-state lithium batteries expecting to go to production late 2025 or early 2026. I imagine the ~2028 model E-Buses will have a long-range version with 30% more range at the same weight for a non-trivial price.
 
T3G said:
Nitpick: The hybrid orders were only converted to diesel after we already had 700 of the things running around here, it wasn't just a "few" units.

But yes, I share your skepticism. The TTC is historically known to enthusiastically bet on the wrong new technologies (CNG, hybrids). Maybe it will all be perfectly fine, but the fact that they're junking the perfectly serviceable 8100 series diesels rather than the NG hybrids which have been a thorn in the TTC's side since they arrived shows me it's not the city's finest minds involved in this project.
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To be fair to TTC. It was more political that they got hybrid buses , especially considering it was around the time they started getting rid of CNG buses the year they got hybrids.

Plus they were getting hybrid buses as a discount because of higher levels of government, so might as well take advantage of the funding , even if the product is trash.
On the bright side, the GMs had to be in service longer.

Just like the current EV buses coming in now, the funding their getting from the feds is quite a lot. It will definitely hurt TTC and their operations. And the CEO will had to answer for that. But we all know , when politicians run the show, the thinking is in the moment without thinking of the long term affects.

TTC didn't want EV and they have reported on the warnings of EV. Particularly the load on the grid, charge times , etc. But obviously even the warning they reported on theyll need to be careful with because if makes the politicians look bad, they're on the chopping block.

Ultimately TTC will get blamed when this current batch of EV fails. Everyone will forget the warnings TTC gave. And by then well have a new CEO anyways blaming the previous administration.

Rinse and repeat every few years.
 
The first of the TTC’s latest batch of electric buses have started to enter service in the northwest of the City.
 
If TTC was smart which they are not these days, they should be installing overhead charging systems at all bus terminals to allow buses to top up or be fully charge under 10 minutes like they in Europe than deadhead when they reach x power. Recharging buses at bus terminals allow a bus to remain in service from start of service to end of service with crew changes at the terminals.

Where buses don't service a bus terminal, charging stations could be installed at the end of the route or places along the route to top off the bus.
 
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drum118 said:
If TTC was smart which they are not these days, they should be installing overhead charging systems at all bus terminals to allow buses to top up or be fully charge under 10 minutes like they in Europe than deadhead when they reach x power. Recharging buses at bus terminals allow a bus to remain in service from start of service to end of service with crew changes at the terminals.

Where buses don't service a bus terminal, charging stations could be installed at the end of the route or places along the route to top off the bus.
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Or maybe we recognize that electric busses currently are garbage and we should stick with hybrid orders for the foreseeable future.

No one is gonna be installing hundreds or even thousands of charging terminals across the network for busses that will struggle to last a few hours in service.
 
yurt2022 said:
Or maybe we recognize that electric busses currently are garbage and we should stick with hybrid orders for the foreseeable future.

No one is gonna be installing hundreds or even thousands of charging terminals across the network for busses that will struggle to last a few hours in service.
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How much is the operating cost for deadheading buses to/from the start of the route vs the cost installing charging stations??? There are a few systems in the US that have charging stations on routes and at bus terminal. Europe has far more than the US with the main focus of keeping buses on routes up to 24 hours and in some cases longer. Most systems were uses bus terminals as charging station and rode a few routes that had charging stations at each end. Some systems use both plug-ins and overhead charging.

You class ebuses as crap, yet rest of the world seam to have no issues to the point a number of systems are fully ebuses now with a fair number taking place in 2025 and the bulk by 2030. Paris will be the last one since they need 6,000 buses to be fully ebuses.

New Flyer has discontinue hybrids for their 60's at this time due to lack of engines to meet current standards.
 
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