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TTC CLRV Streetcars: Where will they go once they are retired?

mdrejhon

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Not a problem. Overheads which are pantograph ready also cope quite well with trolley poles. The section from Bathurst along Fleet Street through the streetcar track within the CNE grounds was, and continues to be used by both the pantograph equipped 509 cars and the pole equipped 511 cars. Summary - both pantograph and pole equipped cars can use overheads which have been upgraded for pantograph operations, but only pole equipped cars can use overheads which have not yet been upgraded.
This be true. What is TTC's long term plan for trolleypole compatibility?

Now that CLRVs are being added to the TTC museum fleet, it does beg the question: Will the catenary remain compatible in 50 years from now?

There are changes to catenary that can reduce future trolleypole compatibility. Depending on what is eventually installed overhead over the years. Little things like, catenary is often intentionally wavier (side to side) for pantograph operation to allow even wear and tear along the top of the pantograph. TTC may do this later once all the CLRVs are retired. This might lead to trolleypole instabilities at full speed operation, though it probably doesn't matter at lower speeds of a "museum run" -- trolleypoles will deal with that at low speeds, like turning a curve where the catenary has sharp angles.. And the diameter of pantograph wire can later become thicker to allow more electric current to travel over it, without needing new pantographs. I wonder if that will cause issues. And there are pantograph devices at intersections in other cities that are pantograph-only and incompatible with trolleypole. Over time, there are pantograph-catenary optimizations that may reduce trolleypole reliability or even compatibility. When the fleet is 100% pantograph except for the museum fleet, it might be costly to permanently remain fully trolleypole compatible in future catenary rebuilds.

For museum fleet deployments -- I presume there are simple solutions -- like replacement contact-shoes for trolleypoles for wire-diameter changes -- and reduced speed operations to deal with less straight wires on straightaways.

Happy 100th anniversary TTC Little Peter Witt #2766 in year 2023! It shall must make a number of mandatory in-service runs to celebrate the centenary. I hope to tap my Presto card on that Peter Witt sometime.
 
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drum118

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This be true. What is TTC's long term plan for trolleypole compatibility?

Now that CLRVs are being added to the TTC museum fleet, it does beg the question: Will the catenary remain compatible in 50 years from now?

There are changes to catenary that can reduce future trolleypole compatibility. Depending on what is eventually installed overhead over the years. Little things like, catenary is often intentionally wavier (side to side) for pantograph operation to allow even wear and tear along the top of the pantograph. TTC may do this later once all the CLRVs are retired. This might lead to trolleypole instabilities at full speed operation, though it probably doesn't matter at lower speeds of a "museum run" -- trolleypoles will deal with that at low speeds, like turning a curve where the catenary has sharp angles.. And the diameter of pantograph wire can later become thicker to allow more electric current to travel over it, without needing new pantographs. I wonder if that will cause issues. And there are pantograph devices at intersections in other cities that are pantograph-only and incompatible with trolleypole. Over time, there are pantograph-catenary optimizations that may reduce trolleypole reliability or even compatibility. When the fleet is 100% pantograph except for the museum fleet, it might be costly to permanently remain fully trolleypole compatible in future catenary rebuilds.

For museum fleet deployments -- I presume there are simple solutions -- like replacement contact-shoes for trolleypoles for wire-diameter changes -- and reduced speed operations to deal with less straight wires on straightaways.

Happy 100th anniversary TTC Little Peter Witt #2766 in year 2023! It shall must make a number of mandatory in-service runs to celebrate the centenary. I hope to tap my Presto card on that Peter Witt sometime.
I expect to see the removal of ALL centenary system after the next set of replacement fleet arrives around 2050. Some new lines not connected to the current network could see no centenary system from day one.

I wouldn't be surprise to see TTC parts of the current system with the same overhead found at St Clair W station today. If so, it will have an impact where the Heritage fleet can roam.

Once the current fleet is off the road, TTC may start replacing switches with switches to meet the new fleet as they come up for replacement.

As for the Witt, don't see the Presto being install on it period as it will never run in service again. Maybe the odd trip.
 

mdrejhon

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I expect to see the removal of ALL centenary system after the next set of replacement fleet arrives around 2050. Some new lines not connected to the current network could see no centenary system from day one.
All? I could easily expect more than half removed someday to simplify the system -- with future battery+catenary LRVs. But the vehicles will almost certainly need to recharge "en motion" to maximize efficiencies. Switching existing catenary to PRIMOVE-style systems would not be something that happens overnight, so more of a graceful scaleback of catenary.
 

rbt

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Despite being surprising, it's a reasonable assertion. If buses can operate efficiently via battery for an entire 18 hour shift from a single central charge point as TTC is currently starting to test, why would we not demand the same of our trams in 30 years when such practice is standard in most vehicles?

The savings for daily maintenance (changing carbons) would make it worth while if the added cost is minimal; as would not overhauling the electrical substations, changing worn wires, etc.
 
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mdrejhon

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With switch from trolleypole to pantograph, you won't need to change carbons daily. But yes, if battery capacity allows allday streetcar life.

Realistically you need catenary at the yards and terminuses for the long layovers. Realistically the transition to battery will be transitional. The "charging infrastructure is already there" is a legitimate excuse: It's overhead. It might be just a question is a matter of 2% through 49% catenary in route-mileage.
 

drum118

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With switch from trolleypole to pantograph, you won't need to change carbons daily. But yes, if battery capacity allows allday streetcar life.

Realistically you need catenary at the yards and terminuses for the long layovers. Realistically the transition to battery will be transitional. The "charging infrastructure is already there" is a legitimate excuse: It's overhead. It might be just a question is a matter of 2% through 49% catenary in route-mileage.
"All" means you will not see any overhead along the streets like we do today. You may see some at loops and all yards will have overhead unless there is another way to charge them without overhead. If you look at Detroit LRT yard, they only have plug-in in the yard. Even Milwaukee and Cincinnati have plug-in in the yard and carhouse today. Cincinnati has no on line overhead at all. Milwaukee has overhead at each end and no overhead from them. There is a short section for overhead on different streets due to the fact they only run on a one way street. Milwaukee is longer and has less overhead than Detroit.

Just like the conversion from poles to pans, the overhead comes down after the last pan car is remove from service. By the time this happen, batteries will be smaller and more powerful than today.
 

ShonTron

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"All" means you will not see any overhead along the streets like we do today. You may see some at loops and all yards will have overhead unless there is another way to charge them without overhead. If you look at Detroit LRT yard, they only have plug-in in the yard. Even Milwaukee and Cincinnati have plug-in in the yard and carhouse today. Cincinnati has no on line overhead at all. Milwaukee has overhead at each end and no overhead from them. There is a short section for overhead on different streets due to the fact they only run on a one way street. Milwaukee is longer and has less overhead than Detroit.

Just like the conversion from poles to pans, the overhead comes down after the last pan car is remove from service. By the time this happen, batteries will be smaller and more powerful than today.
Huh? Cincinnati's streetcar has traditional overhead. Just take a quick look at Google Streetview.
The MLine, Detroit's streetcar, is 5.3 kilometres long, in pretty much a straight line. Milwaukee's is just 3.4 km long.
 

smallspy

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With switch from trolleypole to pantograph, you won't need to change carbons daily. But yes, if battery capacity allows allday streetcar life.
Carbons aren't changed daily on trolley poles, either. They get checked every 3 to 4 days, and changed if necessary.

Dan
 

Johnny Au

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ALRV 4204 is now at Halton County and ALRV 4207 is to be preserved by TTC. As for the CLRVs, 24 left that are considered active, but 17 at most on weekdays, usually 6 on 506 and 12 on 511. On weekends number is much higher.
It makes excellent sense for the first revenue ALRV to be in Halton County.
 

crs1026

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Leave room in 30 to 40 years for a few low-floor Flexity Outlooks & Freedoms.
30 years? I’m still leaning towards having Bombardier deliver a 4604, and send 4401 directly to Rockwood.

Five years and it has never carried a revenue passenger....a veritable Avro Arrow 2.0

- Paul
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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I’m still leaning towards having Bombardier deliver a 4604, and send 4401 directly to Rockwood.
4401 is currently in Thunderay getting fitted out for revenue service after being sent to Quebec for rewelding, it's unsure yet when it will be returned to Toronto to be commissioned but it is unknown when it will be delivered yet.
 

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