TTC capital budget amendments (BD to East Mall study??)

[socialwoe]

I don't think Sherway would appreciate 3000 or 4000 people leaving their cars there all day without shopping. They'd build a parking structure like Fairview.

No one said kiss 'n' ride transit parking would or should interfere with mall parking. Like I keep saying, the vacant land on the Mississauga side is large enough to house a terminal. Parking spaces could also be accomodated. Every transit mall (Yorkdale, Fairview, Dufferin, STC) loses spaces to non-shoppers, the trade-off of inviting several 000 potential new customers through their doors far outweighs that fact.

Even if a subway was built to East Mall,

In spite of my anxiety to jump start new expansion projects, this would be horrid. Once again leave it to the TTC to cost-cut corners by amalgamating what really should be three subway stops (Shorncliffe/Dundas, East Mall/North Queen, Cloverdale/427) into one that's out of the way of any major node, artery or chance of redevelopment. Obviously that's the last place I'd recommend relocating MT to Drum :rolleyes !

How many cars use Dundas and Burnhamthorpe that come from 905 compare to transit? It is easy to get rid of transit than traffic. Then how many are 416?

No, no you've missed the point. If buses and private transit share the same road then it's likely each transportation mode will contribute to the gridlock of the other. Those HOV lanes obviously don't make a difference especially with passenger pick-up/drop-off factoring in.

All 3 TTC routes need to be merge with MT to provide a seamless service for riders.

Would that mean all the other routes serving Kipling/Islington wouldn't have to enter Toronto? How about a descent fare regime, a know weekly GTA passes exist but seriously who can afford those.

It better to spent good money building a new Cloverdale terminal to support MT, TTC, GO and BT as well support the new housing development plan for this area.

Aw, that's the biggest problem I've thought of when examining a western BD extension. Do we head north to Pearson of course serving Cloverdale Mall directly en route? Or head south to Sherway Gdns and eventually into Mississauga? One idea I thought of was hitting Sherway first then proceed north in the median of Hwy 427 a la Allen Exwy subway, though I see how that might inconvenience some. If you feel so strongly about Cloverdale over Sherway I suppose it makes more sense even if land use would be more limited.

Sad point, this extension ranks #4 at best for any expansion where is should be #2 after SRT conversion to subway.

Too bad we don't have an oil deposit in Toronto, I could envision at least five projects concurrently being built :lol . BD is by far the easiest line to extend either direction with SRT corridor as the blueprint in the east, and GO Milton in the west. The line could be elevated or surface until Hwy 427/Queensway costing 166, 500, 000 +the cost of building stations, tunnel under Sherway and bus terminal. Following the same approach to Pearson a whole line from Kipling to the airport via Sherway would total just over a billion.

The point you should ask yourself, are you prepared to spent an extra of 10 to 30 minutes a day of travel time for another white elephant at Sherway? If you have to do this every day, you would change your tune.

Sherway couldn't be farther from being a white elephant, which in all honesty could be said of three of the five end routes (Kipling, Don Mills, McCowan). Mega-mall 980,000 sq. ft., big-box stores nearby, offices, condos, hospital, developable land for expansion, convergence of several major arteries filtering in many 000s of riders. This could be the next NYC, an outer downtown but inter-416 hub where transit, housing, shopping and employment collide!

Maybe you should answer this, do you think it's necessary for so many MT routes to flood Toronto streets when we can bring the subway out to them, getting riders from Etobicoke Creek/Mill Rd. to the subway in no time, cause guess what, that's where the line would culminate? A maximum 5 mins detour down side-streets that don't compete with heavy traffic at all (or pesky stop lights at every turn) to get people to the subway quicker gets people back to Islington in 2 mins not 20. Even the eledged route 1/1c demand for Clarica can't argue there.

The shortest route for all other routes is to Islington along Burnhamthorpe.

:eek say it ain't so! The bottleneck at Dundas-Islington-Cordova is ridiculous. Did anyone consider the potential of a Hwy 427 relief line? Alot of the problems with MT seems to be they're all fighting to make their way to the subway. If a stop at Etobicoke Civic Centre with a bridge bus platform like Lawrence West were built several routes would be alleviated there before the trek to Islington, if that's even warranted still. In fact stops at Queensway, Dundas, Bloor, Burnhamthrope and Rathburn could dividend all 15 MT routes entering the city to Islington.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"No one said kiss 'n' ride transit parking would or should interfere with mall parking."

Yes, someone said that.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

The only problem with East Mall is that it really isn't a destination. How do you market a subway extension to East Mall? Sherway Gardens makes much more sense.

One doesn't preclude the other. The East Mall is basically right between Kipling and Sherway, and is the most likely the first step in an extension as far as Sherway.

 

[socialwoe]

One doesn't preclude the other. The East Mall is basically right between Kipling and Sherway, and is the most likely the first step in an extension as far as Sherway.

East Mall and North Queen perhaps, geographically speaking it is the mid-point. If East Mall gets the subway treatment why must it be midway between nowhere, when at least a stop at North Queen hits the north end of the big-box store district (Walmart's right on the other side) and numerous offices/industries in the area. Of course I'm sort of eliminating the 123 at every point (Shorncliffe, North Queen, Sherway, Evans, Horner, Long Branch) but I feel Shorncliffe is better equipped to serve Six-Points than either Kipling could or East Mall would. Cloverdale also warrants an independent stop, amalgamating all these node/trippers with one lousy pedestrian nightmare stop through nowhere reeks of typical TTC cheapskate sleeziness.

 

[roch5220]

I don't think Sherway would appreciate 3000 or 4000 people leaving their cars there all day without shopping. They'd build a parking structure like Fairview.

I bet you it would serve the purposes of both. Malls thrive on more people traffic. Hence, having the subway station in the mall, would result in more sales. More volume could lead to higher rents as the stores increase their sales. And don't forget, for the most part, commutters would add volume during times of lower shopping traffic.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"And don't forget, for the most part, commutters would add volume during times of lower shopping traffic."

Commuters could fill half of Sherway's parking lot before the mall even opens...Sherway would build a parking structure.

 

[drum118]

www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-c.../_conv.htm

 

[scarberiankhatru]

From that ^ report: "The order of magnitude capital cost estimate is $1B ($2007) for a subway extension to Queensway/West Mall and $1.5B for an extension to Dixie, assuming an underground alignment."

 

[roch5220]

Commuters could fill half of Sherway's parking lot before the mall even opens...Sherway would build a parking structure.

Ever gone to the mall during a regular weekday. The mall isn't half full for the most part (except what it seems lunch time).

 

[unimaginative2]

How am I not at all surprised? The TTC built its line from Islington to Kipling cheaply above-ground. Any extension, along the same rail corridor, according to the TTC, must of course be tunnelled in its entirety. That report doesn't even remotely satisfy council's request. They didn't even deign to mention what the cost to East Mall would be, which is what council was suggesting. It's also absurd that an EA would take 24 months for a one or two stop extension.

 

[socialwoe]

Any extension, along the same rail corridor, according to the TTC, must of course be tunnelled in its entirety.

No, no, no, no! When will we learn, surface/elevated transit is the future >: . SRT/ERT= more stations, more mileage, more lines= less time. Yeah let's pour out the entire TTC budget into tunnels that'll cause claustrophobia when the trains evitably breakdown in them. For the cost of this lousy tunnel we could have a ROW all the way to Hurontario.

It's also absurd that an EA would take 24 months for a one or two stop extension.

Heh, anything to 'justify' scamming taxpayers just a wee, little while longer .

Ever gone to the mall during a regular weekday. The mall isn't half full for the most part (except what it seems lunch time).

Why does everyone assume a subway to Sherway Mall would detriment business when it's shuttling in many thousands more than buses and private cars ever has? For one the TTC/MT would build their own damn parking lot and two even if people still use the free parking it can be regulated as to deter large numbers from doing so.

From that ^ report: "The order of magnitude capital cost estimate is $1B ($2007) for a subway extension to Queensway/West Mall and $1.5B for an extension to Dixie, assuming an underground alignment."

The line could be elevated or surface until Hwy 427/Queensway costing 166, 500, 000 +the cost of building stations, tunnel under Sherway and bus terminal.

Why am I quoting myself now? Anyway, those seem like bloated projections to say the least. When on earth did an extension that all logic could and should be ran on the surface for a mere 3kms cost over a billion? Breaking things down like I've done translates to this costing more around 0.5 billion.

How am I not at all surprised? The TTC built its line from Islington to Kipling cheaply above-ground. Any extension, along the same rail corridor, according to the TTC, must of course be tunnelled in its entirety.

< $40 million cheap. Like I said, the line can be completely above ground for most of the trek. It's running through an industrial wasteland for Christ sakes! Only Sherway Stn. itself should be underground.

One last note on the matter I hope someone replies to, is it not better that Cloverdale and Shorncliffe get separate stops? This East Mall proposal only works further south of Dundas, where an entirely new area is served (also alot of room for redevelopment along North Queen).

 

[AlchemisTO]

No, no, no, no! When will we learn, surface/elevated transit is the future . SRT/ERT= more stations, more mileage, more lines= less time. Yeah let's pour out the entire TTC budget into tunnels that'll cause claustrophobia when the trains evitably breakdown in them. For the cost of this lousy tunnel we could have a ROW all the way to Hurontario.

The cost of tunneling under a railway's right of way is, indeed, stupid, but how do subway tunnels induce claustrophobia, and how is it inevitable that trains will break down in them?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Ever gone to the mall during a regular weekday. The mall isn't half full for the most part (except what it seems lunch time)."

Yes, I've been there many times during the day. Why would the mall want its parking lot full all day, every day? Sure, there's room at 8am, but what about at 6pm when everyone's scrambling to find a parking spot but 2500 of them are taken up by people who haven't left downtown yet? They'd either build a parking structure or the TTC would build spaces somewhere else. Sherway's peripheral parking pads would be all be developed if the subway came, anyway.

"One last note on the matter I hope someone replies to, is it not better that Cloverdale and Shorncliffe get separate stops?"

How can Cloverdale possibly get a stop? You'd have to leave the rail corridor. And no one would use a Shorncliffe stop - it'd only be a few hundred metres from the East Mall stop.

 

[EnviroTO]

I'm not sure it could run on the surface. The rail corridor there isn't that wide and there are a lot of tracks branching off the line to serve neighbouring properties. The subway would need to at very least go over or under the main line and all the service tracks along the route. It would have a little more success in the hydro corridor if the leases with the industry along the corridor to use the space for parking were terminated except near the Queensway were the hydro corridor is part of the big box store parking lots. In all likelihood the cheapest route is to build it under the hydro corridor which would give the construction team cut and cover access along the full route.

 

[unimaginative2]

It should be relatively easy to squeeze it in as far as East Mall. Beyond there, an elevated line seems possible for most or all of the way to Sherway and beyond. It's certainly no more difficult terrain than where the Skytrain is built in Vancouver.