TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[dunkalunk]

Unless you plan on upgrading the current roller-coaster ride at the airport, it will never be able to operate as per your map. I prefer to see LRT in this section.

I do plan on upgrading the roller coaster ride and it would be either LRT or Monorail in design while using the same supports that exist today for the people mover. The only difference that my plan has than what is proposed is that the airport line would not be interlined with the Eglinton LRT.

Until the $1.2 Billion is found to upgrade the Milton Line as well GO increasing its existing train crews by a factor of 70, you are not going to get the 15 minute service you want.

A lot of this is outdated Transport Canada regulations, 3rd world track signalling, and the rest of it is infrastructure deficit, all of which we'll need to bite the bullet for in the relatively near future.

What good is the Brown line BRT for when there is next to no ridership or density on it now to justify an express bus even after the Renforth Gateway opens in 2013? Where is it going east to as noted on your map??

The value is in transfers. This is one of the few places in the city where it is possible to get from the 401 to the Lakeshore in 15-20 minutes. It's not all about density or current ridership, it's about connecting nodes in the quickest way possible.

Not having a line on Dundas either as an BRT now with LRT later on is a huge mistake since Dundas can support more density than MCC only east of Hurontario. West of Hurontario will be only an BRT going out to Burlington. I prefer to see LRT from Day One. Carhouse would be in the Dixie Rd area, as there is land there today for it.

Fair enough, although it would be up to Mississauga to build it.

All lines of GO lines within the current system should be EMU's. Going outside it to KW, Cambridge and NF should be DMU's if there is track space, otherwise you have to use the current fleet. There is nothing stopping GO from having DD DMU's/EMU's.

There actually is, and that is the cost of having to pay 3 attendants per vehicle and crappy track signalling.

You are going to need a BRT on Dixie Rd as well Erin Mills going into Brampton. There is plans for an BRT on Derry Rd, but ridership would be poor even 20 years out.

I don't know too much about the area, I just included what I thought would be a worthwhile addition. Feel free to fill it in with as many lines as you see fit.

Unless the track gauge is change for Mississauga LRT, which I don't see happening, the 501 will not see PC.

The track gauge would stay the exact same as the 501 streetcar. Noone said anything about interlining the Hurontario LRT with the Waterfront West LRT. The line would just use the TTC rolling stock that we are currently ordering.

 

[drum118]

I do plan on upgrading the roller coaster ride and it would be either LRT or Monorail in design while using the same supports that exist today for the people mover. The only difference that my plan has than what is proposed is that the airport line would not be interlined with the Eglinton LRT.


A lot of this is outdated Transport Canada regulations, 3rd world track signalling, and the rest of it is infrastructure deficit, all of which we'll need to bite the bullet for in the relatively near future.


The value is in transfers. This is one of the few places in the city where it is possible to get from the 401 to the Lakeshore in 15-20 minutes. It's not all about density or current ridership, it's about connecting nodes in the quickest way possible.



Fair enough, although it would be up to Mississauga to build it.



There actually is, and that is the cost of having to pay 3 attendants per vehicle and crappy track signalling.


I don't know too much about the area, I just included what I thought would be a worthwhile addition. Feel free to fill it in with as many lines as you see fit.


The track gauge would stay the exact same as the 501 streetcar. Noone said anything about interlining the Hurontario LRT with the Waterfront West LRT. The line would just use the TTC rolling stock that we are currently ordering.

You forget who in charge of the RTP and that is Metrolinx. They have no use for non standard gauge and therefor the Lakeshore extension would be standard, since Hurontario will be standard. Metrolinx is building the Lakeshore, Dundas and Hurontario 100% at this time. If the PC get in this fall, the RTP maybe water down or scrap.

There is no need for a 3 man crew considering CP uses 2 man crew now. If you go to shorter DMU/EMU trains, you only need one man crew.

The Milton Line cost is not caused by outdated Transport Canada regulations, but CP wanting 4 track in place of 3, as well requiring land to add the 4th track including building new bridges and grade separation.

At the same time, how do you expect GO to run more trains on all lines when they are short crews today, let alone in 5 years? you never commented on my factor of 70 that would see GO having 350-400 engineers only by 2025 compare to the 66 they have today.

As for the Brown BRT, I see your point for speed, connecting nodes, but what good is it when you have next to no riders using it or the headway is so poor that its not worth to used it?? The value maybe great for a few riders, but at what cost to the system riders?

If you are looking at a transit map that includes other surrounding areas, you need to look at it and think of it as total network how everything going to work. Drawing lines on maps is one thing, but how they work as a network is another thing. You also need to do some research on those areas as they do have an impact on any plan you come up with.

Using a people mover in place of the roller-coaster is a waste of money and would be better service by LRT with some interlining. The airport is a missing link/hub for the GTA transit system including TTC, let alone Mississauga Transit.

Other than the Brown Line, you are on the right path, but need to do more research and look at a long term vision needs.

 

[dunkalunk]

You're right, I probably need to do a bit more research, however, there is also a reason why people post fantasy maps on forums. Try not to burst my bubble too much k?

You forget who in charge of the RTP and that is Metrolinx. They have no use for non standard gauge and therefor the Lakeshore extension would be standard, since Hurontario will be standard. Metrolinx is building the Lakeshore, Dundas and Hurontario 100% at this time. If the PC get in this fall, the RTP maybe water down or scrap.

Just because Metrolinx is in charge of the RTP does not mean that they are tied into one gauge of rail infrastucture. The Waterfront West LRT (which is also part of the RTP) is being designed to run the exact same gauge as the rest of the TTC Streetcar network to take advantage of existing trackage, so I see no reason why the existing gauge of trackage cannot be extended from Long Branch to Port Credit.

In the end, I guess it makes little difference whether or not the section of LRT between Port Credit and Long branch is run as an extension of the Hurontario LRT or as an extension of the 501 Streetcar.

I just have a preference to not force a transfer along the same corridor if it is not necessary, but since this will be a point where people will be changing transit agencies regardless, I could see the case as arguable for either, even with fare integration through Presto.

There is no need for a 3 man crew considering CP uses 2 man crew now. If you go to shorter DMU/EMU trains, you only need one man crew.

CP is a freight operator and subject to different regulations than passenger operators. I was under the impression that passenger operators needed a minimum of 3 crew members per train, but it is a fact i'll have to frind the source for later since it is almost 1 AM.

In any case, there is no reason why there should need to be 2 crewmen on a 2-car DMU/EMU as long as there are station attendants.

The Milton Line cost is not caused by outdated Transport Canada regulations, but CP wanting 4 track in place of 3, as well requiring land to add the 4th track including building new bridges and grade separation.

If the cost is this high, would it be worthwhile for GO to buy CP's mainline and pay to maintain the track and monitor 3-track operation while charging CP for use of this line.

If CP still won't budge (and who would expect them to, this is their mainline) and expanding track is too expensive within the city, then how about the possibility of building a freight rail bypass paralleling the 407 to meet up with a joint-owned York subdivision? Something like this? It may take CP trains a few extra kilometres to get to their yard in Agincourt, however, by moving almost all freight around the city, they would not have to compete for time with passenger trains and GO, CN, and CP could have complete control over their schedules.

At the same time, how do you expect GO to run more trains on all lines when they are short crews today, let alone in 5 years? you never commented on my factor of 70 that would see GO having 350-400 engineers only by 2025 compare to the 66 they have today.

We hire and train more engineers, that's how. I have no idea where the money is going to come from, but I can sure see that there will be no lack of people willing to be trained for a stable, government-run job in an age of economic uncertainty, and with our projected population growth targets met by immigration.

This problem with no engineers is part of the larger problem that we have in Canada concerning our infrastructure deficit. Something needs to be done, regardless of what political climate we may have in Ottawa or Queens Park. Just look at conservatives in Europe to see how the argument can be made for better rail transport.

As for the Brown BRT, I see your point for speed, connecting nodes, but what good is it when you have next to no riders using it or the headway is so poor that its not worth to used it?? The value maybe great for a few riders, but at what cost to the system riders?

I am not in TDM, however, with the number of GO and potentially Greyhound buses interfacing with the Renforth Gateway, there are sure to be plenty of riders who would use this route over what exists today, especially if they are coming from the West. Currently, to get to Etobicoke by transit from KW, passengers either need to take a Greyhound into Downtown Toronto just to backtrack an hour on the Subway/Streetcar, or take a GO bus to Square One and pay an additional fare to take their chances connecting from Mississauga Transit to the TTC. I have no doubt in my mind that this bus route will be well used, in particular if it is joint-funded by both the TTC and MT.

The Airport Rocket currently runs on 8 minute headways. Even if we just kept those headway in place, I would consider that an acceptable level of service. I would even consider 15 minute headways an acceptable level of service initially.

The argument that you are making here against a rapid bus service on the 427 can be the exact same argument made for not running buses out to suburbs. Buses need to be run out to areas with low ridership in order to bring people to concentrate ridership on high-capacity lines.

If you are looking at a transit map that includes other surrounding areas, you need to look at it and think of it as total network how everything going to work. Drawing lines on maps is one thing, but how they work as a network is another thing. You also need to do some research on those areas as they do have an impact on any plan you come up with.

I'm glad it's not up to me then. All I need to do as a semi-informed citizen is make suggestions to my transit agencies and see if they bite. They are the ones who will be making the decisions.

Using a people mover in place of the roller-coaster is a waste of money and would be better service by LRT with some interlining. The airport is a missing link/hub for the GTA transit system including TTC, let alone Mississauga Transit.

Sorry if I didn't catch on earlier, but if by the roller-coaster you mean the Union-Pearson Air Rail Link? If so, then what I propose would not replace the ARL, but supplement it. I just forgot to show the ARL on the map.

And I thought we went over this before, but I am proposing REPLACING the people mover with some variety of self-propelled, medium capacity rapid transit, whether it be Skytrain, Elevated LRT, Regular LRT, Monorail ect. The exact technology doesn't matter as much as long as they have quick acceleration and frequent headways.

I really don't like the idea of interlining the Airport with the Eglinton line if the Eglinton is going to be run as an LRT to MCC. By splitting the line, you decrease frequencies on both branches of that line, making it less useful for the people who will be using it on a daily basis to get between Mississauga and Toronto. You also force people east of Renforth to wait for the correct route before boarding, adding one more layer of inconvenience for people who could have just as easily drove to work.

Other than the Brown Line, you are on the right path, but need to do more research and look at a long term vision needs.

Is class over now? Can you show me your alternative so we can compare notes?

 

[unimaginative2]

Personally I support both. GO riders and TTC riders are very different animals.

I've posted on this issue many times but they shouldn't be different animals. It should all be one seamless service that is identical and compatible in all respects. Re-designate the GO lines as subway lines if that makes it easier for people to understand but what matters is that service be every 10-15 minutes all day, every day like a normal rapid transit route. It just doesn't make sense to extend our subways further and further out because they're too slow. Why should someone going downtown from Mississauga have to sit in a crammed subway car for an hour stopping at every street when there's a perfectly good parallel route that could get them there in 25 minutes? People going somewhere along the B-D line can make a quick and convenient transfer at Kipling or Dundas West. Obviously there should be no difference in fares, like TTC buses and subways.

The key to this in the Mississauga area is a diversion up to Square One. That's the major hub of Mississauga Transit and it's by far the biggest destination. Directly serving that area would allow the existing corridor to not only provide easy transfers from Mississauga Transit routes for people going into Toronto but also provide a Mississauga rapid transit line connecting Erindale, Meadowvale, Streetsville and even Milton to Square One.

 

[Dan416]

I've posted on this issue many times but they shouldn't be different animals. It should all be one seamless service that is identical and compatible in all respects. Re-designate the GO lines as subway lines if that makes it easier for people to understand but what matters is that service be every 10-15 minutes all day, every day like a normal rapid transit route. It just doesn't make sense to extend our subways further and further out because they're too slow. Why should someone going downtown from Mississauga have to sit in a crammed subway car for an hour stopping at every street when there's a perfectly good parallel route that could get them there in 25 minutes? People going somewhere along the B-D line can make a quick and convenient transfer at Kipling or Dundas West. Obviously there should be no difference in fares, like TTC buses and subways.

The key to this in the Mississauga area is a diversion up to Square One. That's the major hub of Mississauga Transit and it's by far the biggest destination. Directly serving that area would allow the existing corridor to not only provide easy transfers from Mississauga Transit routes for people going into Toronto but also provide a Mississauga rapid transit line connecting Erindale, Meadowvale, Streetsville and even Milton to Square One.

I respectfully, completely disagree.

Someone with a destination anywhere between Square One and Kipling or Kipling to St George or Yonge-Bloor to Kennedy isn't going to want to take a GO train down to Union, and then putter back up on the YUS line to get back on to the Bloor line.

I don't disagree that Milton GO line should be every 15 minutes, and should be diverted (which as far as I can tell is really just pie in the sky at this point, on both fronts). A subway extension is at least doable, even if it is slow. Slow and reliable works for the rest of the Bloor-Danforth line as is. Besides, in lieu of spending billions (and also expropriation likely required) to upgrade Milton as you've mentioned, a subway extension that gives more people a one-seat ride and speeds up thousands of commuters' trips is a good thing in my book. Also the Bloor extension can be done in phases, e.g. to Sherway or Dixie first, and then on to Dundas-Hurontario.

The subway would be a more local route, versus the more express nature of the GO line.

I see no reason why both shouldn't be pursued (besides cost of course).

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

I respectfully, completely disagree.

Someone with a destination anywhere between Square One and Kipling or Kipling to St George or Yonge-Bloor to Kennedy isn't going to want to take a GO train down to Union, and then putter back up on the YUS line to get back on to the Bloor line.

I don't disagree that Milton GO line should be every 15 minutes, and should be diverted (which as far as I can tell is really just pie in the sky at this point, on both fronts). A subway extension is at least doable, even if it is slow. Slow and reliable works for the rest of the Bloor-Danforth line as is. Besides, in lieu of spending billions (and also expropriation likely required) to upgrade Milton as you've mentioned, a subway extension that gives more people a one-seat ride and speeds up thousands of commuters' trips is a good thing in my book. Also the Bloor extension can be done in phases, e.g. to Sherway or Dixie first, and then on to Dundas-Hurontario.

The subway would be a more local route, versus the more express nature of the GO line.

I see no reason why both shouldn't be pursued (besides cost of course).

I think connecting an already very busy BD line further west would overload the line. Speaking as someone that had to try to squeeze on a train from Dufferin, Ossington and Christie at rush hour, this line (maybe not to the extent of the Yonge line) is reaching capacity fast. Yes we could find some extra capacity in the future similar to the Yonge line, but at some point we have to understand certain lines cannot be extended. Yonge to Richmond Hill is the best example of an extension that may be unwise.

 

[Dan416]

I think connecting an already very busy BD line further west would overload the line. Speaking as someone that had to try to squeeze on a train from Dufferin, Ossington and Christie at rush hour, this line (maybe not to the extent of the Yonge line) is reaching capacity fast. Yes we could find some extra capacity in the future similar to the Yonge line, but at some point we have to understand certain lines cannot be extended. Yonge to Richmond Hill is the best example of an extension that may be unwise.

Like the Yonge extension, I find this argument rather silly. People will just be sitting on the subway longer, not overloading the subway any more. People on the Yonge line are already overloading the line at Finch, and Mississauga riders are already overloading the line at Kipling and Islington. It's a non-argument.

If you want to argue that more people will ride both lines now, fine. But that's a separate argument, and really, we should WANT a subway extension to induce more demand!

That said, the Bloor-Danforth line is far away from being as crowded as the Yonge line.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Like the Yonge extension, I find this argument rather silly. People will just be sitting on the subway longer, not overloading the subway any more. People on the Yonge line are already overloading the line at Finch, and Mississauga riders are already overloading the line at Kipling and Islington. It's a non-argument.

If you want to argue that more people will ride both lines now, fine. But that's a separate argument, and really, we should WANT a subway extension to induce more demand!

That said, the Bloor-Danforth line is far away from being as crowded as the Yonge line.

I think extending the line will increase ridership greatly, not as you put it, just take people off the MT buses going to Kipling and Islington. If as you put it, people will just be sitting on the subway longer, then apparently there is no demand for this extension because the MT buses can easily handle the load.

I'm just confused when you said "Mississauga riders are already overloading the line at Kipling and Islington", yet you also think there is lots of capacity because the line is not as crowded as the Yonge Line.

I'm just pointing out what I believe the flaws would be, and that this would be the reason you would not want to extend subways beyond X kms. Extending the line to make better connections with MT buses or possibly a MT LRT or subway would work. Fair zones would become an issue as well. Extending this line further west, IMO, will just serve to over crowd the line so that when trains reach stops within the City it will look just like the Yonge Line. If the real point is to get people from Hurontario and Dundas to downtown, I don't think the Subway is the way to do it.

While I'm sure short turns will help, people in the City might not be too happy that TTC is providing an inter-city subway which will result in worse service within the 416. (Same goes for Richmond Hill and Vaughan extension).

 

[accura407]

Unlike the situation with the Vaughan or Richmond Hill Extensions, A frequent commuter-rail connection to square one via the Milton Line and a tunnel spur would serve all types of travel...

a) Square One to Union - currently served by a GO Bus every 20 minutes, surely this segment will grow as MCC continues to grow.
b) Square One to anywhere along The BD Line - The service will stop at Kipling Station...at that point commuters that want to continue along BD as they normally do can do so...

Local intercity travel in Mississauga can be done with LRT on Dundas and Hurontario. The platoon of buses travelling from MCC to Kipling would be greatly reduced if there is a frequent all-day express service that shuttles them from MCC to Kipling and then Union.

Vaughan had no realistic commuter rail option (well maybe if you wanted to create a long spur from the Barrie Line) and the Richmond Hill line is not an ideal route because it only brings people between RHC and Union with no intermediate stops but the Milton line is perfect for this type of operation...

I would think that a single rail wide diameter tunnel spur from the Milton line around Cliff Rd N to MCC should do the job fine. The vastly upgraded georgetown rail corridor would be more than handle the capacity of this service from the Junction onwards. The biggest obstacle in all this is the Milton corridor from Cliff Rd N to the Junction.

Maybe an elevated double track line adjacent to the Milton Line could do the trick? Another option is to deviate off the Milton Line and create a spur into Sherway Gardens...then run a double tracked express line along the median of the Gardiner Expressway up to the Humber River junction for which the 2 tracks would join the Lakeshore West Corridor? This would however, remove the necessary connection to the BD Line at Kipling...

EDIT: I've Made a Map to Describe the Route
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=211643359052280864545.0004aa29be0a6906fec5a

 

[unimaginative2]

I respectfully, completely disagree.

Someone with a destination anywhere between Square One and Kipling or Kipling to St George or Yonge-Bloor to Kennedy isn't going to want to take a GO train down to Union, and then putter back up on the YUS line to get back on to the Bloor line.

I don't disagree that Milton GO line should be every 15 minutes, and should be diverted (which as far as I can tell is really just pie in the sky at this point, on both fronts). A subway extension is at least doable, even if it is slow. Slow and reliable works for the rest of the Bloor-Danforth line as is. Besides, in lieu of spending billions (and also expropriation likely required) to upgrade Milton as you've mentioned, a subway extension that gives more people a one-seat ride and speeds up thousands of commuters' trips is a good thing in my book. Also the Bloor extension can be done in phases, e.g. to Sherway or Dixie first, and then on to Dundas-Hurontario.

The subway would be a more local route, versus the more express nature of the GO line.

I see no reason why both shouldn't be pursued (besides cost of course).

You have to understand that in Europe, a regional rail line is considered the exact same as a subway line. There's no difference between the two and they're absolutely interchangeable, except that a regional rail line is faster and has higher capacity.

Anyone from Mississauga going somewhere along Bloor from Kipling to St. George could transfer to the subway at either Kipling or Dundas West. Why would they have to go all the way to Union?

What about the rest of Mississauga with your plan? Regional Rail could serve most of the city with real rapid transit. A subway would just end at Square One and force people to transfer to buses.

There is no added benefit to doing both. Most of the subway corridor would just roughly parallel the regional rail line anyway. And why would anybody take the slower subway when they can take the same trip on regional rail--regardless of destination--and get there much more quickly and comfortably?



Interesting points, accura, but I think that capacity really isn't that big of a concern. The corridor is easily wide enough for three tracks. Two would be for regional rail and the third would be for CP. Though they'll claim otherwise, their track investments where transit agencies aren't paying the bills show that single-track CTC with frequent sidings is more than sufficient for the Galt Sub.

I think that a full, double-track diversion through Square One is the best idea, with it continuing west along the 403 to re-join the existing corridor. That would allow it to become a Mississauga trunk rapid transit line feeding into Square One as well as avoid splitting frequencies. You wouldn't really miss anything on the existing corridor, either, with such a plan.

 

[accura407]

Interesting points, accura, but I think that capacity really isn't that big of a concern. The corridor is easily wide enough for three tracks. Two would be for regional rail and the third would be for CP. Though they'll claim otherwise, their track investments where transit agencies aren't paying the bills show that single-track CTC with frequent sidings is more than sufficient for the Galt Sub.

I think that a full, double-track diversion through Square One is the best idea, with it continuing west along the 403 to re-join the existing corridor. That would allow it to become a Mississauga trunk rapid transit line feeding into Square One as well as avoid splitting frequencies. You wouldn't really miss anything on the existing corridor, either, with such a plan.

But the question is...do you keep both lines actively running...for example...

A) GO Train to Milton via Cooksville - Erindale
B) GO Train to Milton via Mississauga City Centre

I mean mississauga isn't a mega metropolis yet but having a train that bypasses the city centre wouldn't be such a bad idea right? They could even run it express from Union with the first stop being Cooksville and beyond...

A 2.5 Km Dual track Tunnel would be expensive but unlike other subway projects, this one is guarenteed to make a return on investment from day one! Who wouldn't love a 22-25 Min express train ride from MCC to Union? I would think that business/corporations would be building mega skyscrapers around Square One the moment a project like this was announced! 250m skyscraper office tower anyone?

It can be phased as well. First build the tunnel to Square One and have the route run as a spur from the Milton Line. Then later on you can complete the route from Square One along the 403 to the existing Milton Line.

 

[doady]

I don't like diversion of Milton because Erindale and Cooksville are some of the best stations in the entire system. Removal of Cooksville would hurt Hurontario LRT especially. Then of course there is the expense of the tunnel.

GO to MCC should use the Georgetown corridor instead (which has higher capacity to begin with).

Dundas LRT interlined with Hurontario LRT is not bad idea except Hurontario LRT is already projected to have 4-5 min frequency as soon as it is fully completed. There's just no more capacity for another route using the same tracks. So subway extension along Dundas is best.

 

[Towered]

The most frustrating thing to me is that the Bloor line ends at Kipling for no apparent reason. There is nothing there to justify a subway terminus. Sure, it can be argued that it's in the middle of our vision of a massive ECC, but that wasn't on anyone's radar in 1980, and it's still at least a decade away from happening. East Mall would make much more sense as the last station - it's next to Cloverdale Mall, the Honeydale Mall lands (which are proposed to go high density residential), and the 427, a major highway with a lot of condo developments. Sherway Gardens would make a lot more sense too. I don't understand why this hasn't happened.

 

[doady]

The most frustrating thing to me is that the Bloor line ends at Kipling for no apparent reason. There is nothing there to justify a subway terminus. Sure, it can be argued that it's in the middle of our vision of a massive ECC, but that wasn't on anyone's radar in 1980, and it's still at least a decade away from happening. East Mall would make much more sense as the last station - it's next to Cloverdale Mall, the Honeydale Mall lands (which are proposed to go high density residential), and the 427, a major highway with a lot of condo developments. Sherway Gardens would make a lot more sense too. I don't understand why this hasn't happened.

East Mall would also be the optimal for the main MT bus terminal. It would shorten over a dozen MT routes, plus a few TTC bus routes.

 

[CDL.TO]

I don't like diversion of Milton because Erindale and Cooksville are some of the best stations in the entire system. Removal of Cooksville would hurt Hurontario LRT especially. Then of course there is the expense of the tunnel.

GO to MCC should use the Georgetown corridor instead (which has higher capacity to begin with).

Dundas LRT interlined with Hurontario LRT is not bad idea except Hurontario LRT is already projected to have 4-5 min frequency as soon as it is fully completed. There's just no more capacity for another route using the same tracks. So subway extension along Dundas is best.

I think with a good alignment, you could still serve Cooksville (though it would be moved underground). Being such an important hub and centre for Mississauga, I think it would be worth it.

If you follow the 403 to reconnect to the Milton line, you could just relocate Erindale station 600m north of its current location. This would also provide a good connection to the Mississauga Transitway.