TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[generalcanada]

There is something noteworthy that Steve points out, a semi-permanent closure of the subway to install these will save a crapload of money.
Not just the 4 hours and weekend closures once a month.

Something skipped over in the recent Rogers installation report is the note that work crew schedules are pretty damn tight. there's currently not much room to add more work in.

 

[txlseries4]

What is the logic behind using a super busy station like Dundas as a prototype rather than testing out the technology on a station where a full scale closure would cause considerably less disruption, like, say, Chester?

I watched about 5 min of the board meeting and this happened to get asked lol. Here’s the exchange:

 

[Mihairokov]

I watched about 5 min of the board meeting and this happened to get asked lol. Here’s the exchange:

Thanks for this. I haven't see the track intrusion numbers per station but I suppose it's fair that they want to test on a station with high track intrusion to see how much effect it will have on operations in general.

 

[daptive]

There is something noteworthy that Steve points out, a semi-permanent closure of the subway to install these will save a crapload of money.
Not just the 4 hours and weekend closures once a month.

Something skipped over in the recent Rogers installation report is the note that work crew schedules are pretty damn tight. there's currently not much room to add more work in.

If they close off sections of the subway to install this they need to implement consistent express shuttle busses between sections with ROW lanes.

It took them no time to do the same on Spadina when the busses were stuck in traffic.

 

[nfitz]

I assume because they want a "worst-case" or highest traffic scenario to pilot on. If nobody uses Chester it's tough to say how they would handle large groups of people or crowd crushes.

I'd very much assume that is the case. I'd think the big question with these doors, is how they'll behave on very crowded platforms with people leaning against doors, and trying to go through doors as they are closing and properly opening. That's going to be a lot easier to test in places you regularly get such conditions. It's all fine if it works in a remote place ... but they can't start a system-wide installation until they've properly stress tested it.

Completely ridiculous that we're looking at a 20-year timeline for a system-wide implementation. We're talking about a 2050 completion for this.

I'd assume that's mostly funding. Though it's surely over a decade until there's system-wide ATC.

 

[David_Brown]

When they installed platform screen doors to existing lines in Busan, South Korea…they didn’t have to close subway stations to do it, and it maybe took a couple of years at most.

 

[north-of-anything]

When they installed platform screen doors to existing lines in Busan, South Korea…they didn’t have to close subway stations to do it, and it maybe took a couple of years at most.

Busan's subway system opened in 1985. The TTC subway is about 30 years older and has much more asbestos in it.

If it was that easy, we would have started in the 2010s.

 

[nfitz]

Busan's subway system opened in 1985. The TTC subway is about 30 years older and has much more asbestos in it.

When I rode the Busan subway in the 1990s it was pretty tiny. Looks much larger now. Presumably the new stations were more likely to be door ready to begin with.

If you look at the station list in the TTC reports, any TTC station that's opened since 1985 has a lot less issues they have to deal with.

How are doors working on older system? I haven't seen ANY in Paris or in Manhattan. I've only seen it in London on brand new stations - and even on the Jubilee line, they didn't go back to the pre-1990s stations and do those.

 

[allabootmatt]

When I rode the Busan subway in the 1990s it was pretty tiny. Looks much larger now. Presumably the new stations were more likely to be door ready to begin with.

If you look at the station list in the TTC reports, any TTC station that's opened since 1985 has a lot less issues they have to deal with.

How are doors working on older system? I haven't seen ANY in Paris or in Manhattan. I've only seen it in London on brand new stations - and even on the Jubilee line, they didn't go back to the pre-1990s stations and do those.

Tokyo basically has them everywhere now, though not the full-height doors like the Elizabeth Line. Much of that system would be of similar vintage to the TTC, or older.

 

[nstuch]

When I rode the Busan subway in the 1990s it was pretty tiny. Looks much larger now. Presumably the new stations were more likely to be door ready to begin with.

If you look at the station list in the TTC reports, any TTC station that's opened since 1985 has a lot less issues they have to deal with.

How are doors working on older system? I haven't seen ANY in Paris or in Manhattan. I've only seen it in London on brand new stations - and even on the Jubilee line, they didn't go back to the pre-1990s stations and do those.

according to this there's a bunch of lines with them in Paris

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_screen_doors

 

[nfitz]

Tokyo basically has them everywhere now, though not the full-height doors like the Elizabeth Line. Much of that system would be of similar vintage to the TTC, or older.

Which means 2 of the biggest issues - lighting and ventilation - go away. And perhaps even the structural issues, depending on how much lighter they are.

How did their implementation impact service disruptions from suicides and other track intrusions?

 

[Northern Light]

Article from CBC News on the status of the PED project (basically no news at all). Not killed, but not approved.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-line-platform-edge-subway-doors-9.7047047

The only bit of interest to me was:

Yes, some of us have questioned those estimates, which are extremely high.

Again, I want to note problems with the ways in which the TTC designs and manages project files.

In this case, they hired a third party consultant to synthesize all the info out there on PED types/options/costs, and to incorporate any TTC specific info they could and lay out a plan forward.
Fine, I suppose.

**

But there is a very high degree of uncertainty here, because the TTC has no experience building these, hasn't actually decided how it would manage partial or full station closures to carry out the work, has pushed them largely off into the future (requiring inflation estimates), and hasn't actually contracted with a company that has actually built these before, as retrofits.

**

My recommendation:

1) The commissioned report was correct to suggest a pilot station and then maybe 2-3 more where types of installation may vary. Good. Don't worry about the full cost right now, bite it off in chunks.

2) Hire a team with experience doing this work; and get the project to 100% design before tendering construction. Settle early on, on how to manage any closure issues.

3) Keep those short by turning the usual tender on its head. Short closure is a tender requirement and the on-site worker count must be maximized. Two weeks tops. During the work period, you shut down trains early through the station, and completely on weekends.

4) Use the pilots to inform the long term cost.

5) Prioritize stations with suicide and intrusion issues. If you fixed the most problematic dozen you likely fix 80% of the problems.

6) Get on with it, the re-study of the studies consumes money and staff time and just adds inflation to thee next estimate.

For those discussing where else retrofits of PEDS have been done.....its a good sized list (from the article linked above)

 

[David_Brown]

Also, if memory serves me correctly, in Busan they installed platform screen doors at busier stations initially, before rolling it out across the network.

 

[6ixGod]

Shocker…..things cost money! I’m flabbergasted!

Meanwhile I was just on Line 1 and the operator is slowing down to a crawl before every station….blowing the horn….then crawls into the station. World Class Service! Bravo! What should have been a 20 min ride has morphed into a 40 min ride with all the slow zones and this weird obsession with operators to slow the trains down because they’re afraid of jumpers.

Build platform barriers if not screen doors then. How is the TTC and Metrolinx not embarrassed?

 

[lastcommodore]

Shocker…..things cost money! I’m flabbergasted!

It's not a shocker that PSDs cost money, but what completely amazes me is the sheer cost cited. The TTC is citing up to 55 million per station.

Perhaps I am being incredibly naive, and someone with far more construction experience can tell me why I am wrong, but I genuinely do not see how it can cost this much. In theory, all you do is bolt some plexiglas from the ceiling to the floor, and install some automatic doors- neither of which I can see being 55 million.

The TTC is planning that the 55 new trains for line 2 is 41 mil. per train. We are paying MORE for some walls and automatic doors than for a whole subway train- even on the low end of 44 mil? What black magic is in these platform screen doors that make it more expensive than a subway train?

Likewise, there are talks of large-scale shutdowns of the subway to install PSDs. Again, bolting some plexiglass and some automatic doors. If executed correctly, I don't see how this can even take a weekend- and I have seen Japanese subways install platform-length barriers between the last train of the night and first train of the day.

"Install platform barriers instead of screen doors" is not an acceptable solution. This is the same thing as those who yelled that subways were too expensive after Sheppard. Their solution was not, "oh wow, we're paying insane amounts for subways; we're insanely bad with money and should really figure out where all that money is going to", it was "We should just build cheaper so, accounting for the poor money handling, it ends up cheaper."

This is how we built LRT for the price we built Sheppard, and we will end up building platform barriers at the price of screen doors. Then, we will start arguing that maybe it would be cheaper to just put some railings or whatever.

Again, maybe there's a genuine reason it's this expensive, but I really don't see it, and I would love to be proven wrong and that the TTC is actually being reasonable with costs.