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Ed007Toronto
Guest
^ Use a smartcard that is automatically swiped when you enter and leave the system. It'll know exactly how far you went and can automatically debit your account.
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fiendishlibrarian
Guest
dan: much the same way it's enforced now at the York/Peel border. The driver stops the bus, and tells anyone who's staying on the bus to deposit the extra fare. In the old days of streetcar operation, if it was a Witt train, you'd have a two-man crew and one would collect the fares. The other way involved the transfers being valid only up to a certain point, with the length of the transfers being cut-off at the zone boundary indicated on the back. If you wanted a valid transfer, you had to pay extra (at least that's how I think it worked). That was for the surface routes. The subway was its own "zone", and you had a situation where unless you had a valid transfer, you either had to pay an additional fare when you got to some stations (like Sheppard was before they changed it, and I think Jane is still like that), or you deposited another fare when you got onto the bus, and you recieved a valid transfer there up to the next zone. But Ed's right, a system of pre-paid debit cards would be the quickest and easiest way to collect zone fares.
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dan e 1980
Guest
fare zones sound fair. when you compare the TTC to other forms of transport, you're getting a pretty good deal. i'm just concerned that there might be some kinks in such a system.
lets say eglinton is a zone border, say i travel from 2 stops north of eglinton on weston to 2 stops south of eglinton, a 2 zone fare would have to be paid for a really short trip. this can discourage use. also, having a guy collect fares when entering a new zone could add time to a commute if the bus is stopped while doing this. if you don't stop the bus, people can travel that extra distance for free before getting kicked off.
a more fair system would be one where you pay for distance traveled in KM but how the heck can you do that with routes that have transfers?
the system is pretty out of whack though. someone that only has to go a few stops has to pay the same amout as someone that can go across toronto. in one situation, the user is getting raped, in another, the TTC is getting raped.
it's a complex issue, hopefully someone can figure it out.
lets say eglinton is a zone border, say i travel from 2 stops north of eglinton on weston to 2 stops south of eglinton, a 2 zone fare would have to be paid for a really short trip. this can discourage use. also, having a guy collect fares when entering a new zone could add time to a commute if the bus is stopped while doing this. if you don't stop the bus, people can travel that extra distance for free before getting kicked off.
a more fair system would be one where you pay for distance traveled in KM but how the heck can you do that with routes that have transfers?
the system is pretty out of whack though. someone that only has to go a few stops has to pay the same amout as someone that can go across toronto. in one situation, the user is getting raped, in another, the TTC is getting raped.
it's a complex issue, hopefully someone can figure it out.
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doady
Guest
Since poverty in Toronto is concentrated at the fringe of the city, I dont think a fare zone system is a good idea.
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fiendishlibrarian
Guest
In some cases fares may actually go down. In any case, I'm sure some sort of flat-rate pass would be introduced. Besides, how are rising fares benefitting anyone now? You have the worst of both worlds under this system: rising fares, and the inability to improve service to the residents who most need it.
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SD2
Guest
Cheap? Compared to other cities in North America its becoming the most expensive! eg. It's $2US in NYC ($2.30cdn). Our system is not as good compared to new york.
If the fare increases were for making the system bigger, then I would approve. However its to keep it running.
I know many from the GTA who'd rather drive and park now, 8 yrs ago, they parked @ a subway and took that. I can see this decreasing the ridership below their expectations for this year.
Well, compared to somewhere like London, the system is a bargain. If the $0.50 a trip difference (or whatever the difference is) between 8 years ago and now encouraged those people to drive...well, those people don't have much common sense do they? And that's assuming they paid cash. A metropass and parking is probably a lot cheaper than driving.
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BrianHawkins1
Guest
"Since poverty in Toronto is concentrated at the fringe of the city, I dont think a fare zone system is a good idea."
I also don't.
fiendish:
I agree completely with the essential social and political points of your rant, but not with the specific springboard from which it so gracefully sprang. I don't like the idea of zoned fares in principle. In a way, it seems to run contrary to the purpose of public transportation, which is in part to ensure that most people in a city can get where they want to go affordably and efficiently, and to encourage them to do so. Raising fares for those further from the core will inevitably discourage ridership, decrease the number of people willing to schlep downtown to work or shop, and will also effectively 'punish' those who live 'too far' from the centre. Many people choose to live in the more distant realms of town for financial reasons, not because they necessarily adore the suburban life. Heaping more costs onto people living away from the core because that's where they can comfortably afford to live doesn't seem right to me. In Ric Burns' excellent documentary tv series about NY, he notes that the flat subway fare was first implemented in NY, and that the decision was 'democratic' in nature: the thinking at the time was that no one who lived in Bronx, for instance, whether by necessity or choice, should have to pay more to get downtown - where the city wanted people to be - than anyone living anywhere else. The fare structure was consciously egalitarian - I'd like to see this principle upheld here in TO. Keep the flat fare, but hike it up to a level more appropriate to the TTC's needs. Personally, I'd be happy living downtown and paying $4 or whatever per short trip if it meant keeping the fare flat and properly funding an expanding system.
I also don't.
fiendish:
I agree completely with the essential social and political points of your rant, but not with the specific springboard from which it so gracefully sprang. I don't like the idea of zoned fares in principle. In a way, it seems to run contrary to the purpose of public transportation, which is in part to ensure that most people in a city can get where they want to go affordably and efficiently, and to encourage them to do so. Raising fares for those further from the core will inevitably discourage ridership, decrease the number of people willing to schlep downtown to work or shop, and will also effectively 'punish' those who live 'too far' from the centre. Many people choose to live in the more distant realms of town for financial reasons, not because they necessarily adore the suburban life. Heaping more costs onto people living away from the core because that's where they can comfortably afford to live doesn't seem right to me. In Ric Burns' excellent documentary tv series about NY, he notes that the flat subway fare was first implemented in NY, and that the decision was 'democratic' in nature: the thinking at the time was that no one who lived in Bronx, for instance, whether by necessity or choice, should have to pay more to get downtown - where the city wanted people to be - than anyone living anywhere else. The fare structure was consciously egalitarian - I'd like to see this principle upheld here in TO. Keep the flat fare, but hike it up to a level more appropriate to the TTC's needs. Personally, I'd be happy living downtown and paying $4 or whatever per short trip if it meant keeping the fare flat and properly funding an expanding system.
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Ontarian1976
Guest
Only problem with zones on buses and streetcars is that it would slow them down even further - and they're too slow as it is.
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MetroBoiNay
Guest
It may be more expensive to us, but to them (ppl in london) its not. It's just expensive for people to visit.
I would pay more money to the ttc if it was going towards a better system, not tryin to keep what we have running and no expansion. Expansion is key to our city as it expands, its expensive, but better do it now than later, it'll just get more expensive if we put it off til later.
I would pay more money to the ttc if it was going towards a better system, not tryin to keep what we have running and no expansion. Expansion is key to our city as it expands, its expensive, but better do it now than later, it'll just get more expensive if we put it off til later.
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fiendishlibrarian
Guest
I agree with brian to some extent. I don't think we should be trying to punish anyone, but under the system we have now, everyone is being punished because the system as it is now is not sustainable. Perhaps zoned fares aren't the answer for that reason (although I still think different fare structures based on distance should be implemented in some form. Or different fares for subway service perhaps.). The point of my rant was that politicians are not thinking in this way. They are not telling us what the true cost of transit is now, and they are not presenting us with sound options to rectify the problem. Instead, it's the same old song and dance with the province, the feds, etc, and the same unsustainable financing models are still in place.
Why not try new arrangements? Issue bonds for new lines, for example. Spin part of the TTC off into a private corporation so it can raise funds on the open market, something. I just think the governance model as it is now isn't working, and a degree of political control should be removed to allow the TTC to do what it once did, which is to build and operate an effective transit system without lurching from crisis to crisis.
Why not try new arrangements? Issue bonds for new lines, for example. Spin part of the TTC off into a private corporation so it can raise funds on the open market, something. I just think the governance model as it is now isn't working, and a degree of political control should be removed to allow the TTC to do what it once did, which is to build and operate an effective transit system without lurching from crisis to crisis.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"In some cases fares may actually go down."
They better, cause ridership in outlying areas may shrink dramatically. A huge percentage of TTC riders live very far out and any substantial fare hike due to zones with no increase in speed or frequency means switching to cars, GO, moving downtown where they won't take TTC, etc. This is mainly applicable to travelling downtown, though...I'm not sure how zones will affect travel anywhere else in the city.
They better, cause ridership in outlying areas may shrink dramatically. A huge percentage of TTC riders live very far out and any substantial fare hike due to zones with no increase in speed or frequency means switching to cars, GO, moving downtown where they won't take TTC, etc. This is mainly applicable to travelling downtown, though...I'm not sure how zones will affect travel anywhere else in the city.
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SD2
Guest
Why not try new arrangements? Issue bonds for new lines, for example. Spin part of the TTC off into a private corporation so it can raise funds on the open market, something. I just think the governance model as it is now isn't working, and a degree of political control should be removed to allow the TTC to do what it once did, which is to build and operate an effective transit system without lurching from crisis to crisis.
I've always wondered why they haven't tried ideas like this as well. Where's the common sense??!
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EnviroTO
Guest
They couldn't issue bonds because they aren't allowed to. The Toronto Act I think will allow them to.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
So will World War-era-style TTC bond ads replace the stupid superhero ads? Awesome.
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gboykovekin
Guest
As a casual user of the TTC I feel that $2.75 is still a bargain for cross-city transportation. However, I'm still too cheap to use the TTC when I'm downtown, even in the nastiest of weather. Coming from exurbia, I'd rather walk 20-30 minutes and several kilometres.