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Transit Fantasy Maps

EnviroTO: your plan would be improved by the addition of service on the Midtown GO line to Summerhill/Dupont/beyond?. After passing through the hearts of Malvern and Agincourt, it'd hit Warden & Ellesmere, VP & Lawrence, and Don Mills & Eglinton...that's a bankable dream team of stations in the east.
 
The reason I didn't put it in was because after passing eastward of Malvern the route becomes unnessessary and in midtown there isn't nearly as much connectivity options to all the other GTA lines nor enough space to put in more than 2 or 3 platforms easily to build a place where that connectivity could occur. I was about to draw in a route Long Branch - Kipling - Midtown - Don Valley - Agincourt - Malvern - Pickering as a Midtown connector but didn't because (a) Union is better connected, (b) Main Street / Danforth station and Dundas West / Bloor stations were to be improved to provide connections to midtown, (c) the TTC routes such as the Don Valley RT, SRT, Sheppard Line, Eglinton RT, etc. would provide more local Don Valley and Scarborough service anyways, and (d) the Airport - Markham line through Scarborough would be one of the most frequent lines in the system and would connect to TTC services that serve the other areas you mention. If the number of people transferring to the Bloor Danforth Line at Dundas West / Bloor and Main Street / Danforth reached levels that warrant the midtown line then the option would still be there.
 
"As in an SRT extension from STC to Fairview via the Zoo? You're cute...have some cookies."

No thanks, I think I'll pass. And since when did Malvern become Meadowvale/Old Finch and not Neilson/McLevin?

Yes Agincourt deserves something, just not a full-fledged subway when the entire Sheppard corridor is underpreforming in contrast both YUS and BD, the SRT, most downtown streetcar routes and even some bus routes. It may be a very long time before ridership levels are high enough to warrant completion of Lastman's dream line. But in the mean time a SRT, which can be converted to subway in the future if need be, aids both Agincourt and Malvern.

Oh and before I forget do you think STC will be as important as it is today once either Sheppard or SRT is extended and less buses have to terminate there? And what about the proposed route of the Sheppard extension through the industrial park south of Agincourt (I think that's the wasteland people were refering to). You'd approve running a subway there when Ellesmere and Midland are among the least used stops in the system? You're giving up 000s of potential riders to speed up your commute of a few mins, for shame!
 
"And since when did Malvern become Meadowvale/Old Finch and not Neilson/McLevin?"

When you failed to clearly map out your planned routes.

"4. SRT East-
extension to Toronto Zoo via Malvern/ Morningside Hts."
"I never said to abandon Sheppard East but rather to extend the SRT on there."

Maybe you should be clearer about where this SRT extension will be. You've changed your mind within this thread - where will the loop go? Or will it be branched off somewhere?

"Oh and before I forget do you think STC will be as important as it is today once either Sheppard or SRT is extended and less buses have to terminate there?"

Yes, if only because of the mall. Yorkdale is second only to Downsview on the Spadina line in terms of ridership for a reason. There's also room for maybe 20 more condos at STC, and don't forget the jobs - over 10,000 of them. Buses don't need to terminate there, but for residents of Milliken and Malvern, the B/D line will still be the fastest way downtown, and STC is directly on the way...why wouldn't you terminate most buses there where they can connect with the mall and other stuff around STC?

"And what about the proposed route of the Sheppard extension through the industrial park south of Agincourt (I think that's the wasteland people were refering to)."

As if a 1km stretch of less than ideal territory was a subway deal breaker. Or is it less than ideal at all? Proponents of the York U extension laud the potential of redeveloping that wasteland. Well, the south-of-Agincourt wasteland is already being redeveloped, without a subway or any subway construction on the foreseeable horizon. 2000 residential units were recently proposed within this wasteland, and I can see another 10,000 being proposed if subway construction was announced, and everything within the Scarborough Centre area could be condos within a generation.

"You'd approve running a subway there when Ellesmere and Midland are among the least used stops in the system?"

Do you even know why they aren't well-used? You do realize that both stops are right next to each other and that the Ellesmere bus does not connect with Ellesmere station, right? Combine both stops and connect with Ellesmere buses and a station there might see 15-20,000 riders a day, not 6000.

"You're giving up 000s of potential riders to speed up your commute of a few mins, for shame!"

Yes, I might give up thousands of riders if it meant speeding up a line. The potential riders you're referring to are further east along Sheppard in Malvern, right? Honestly, why is Malvern so important that it desperately needs two rapid transit lines?
 
"why is Malvern so important that it desperately needs two rapid transit lines?"

Not two lines, a loop! To paraphrase, why is STC so important that it desperately needs two rapid transit lines? I'm sure anywhere that sprang up some condos deserves its own subway. Gee, I know, lets get a line out to Mimico!:rollin

Even if the line didn't enter Malvern, the SRT was already proposed from the 80s to be extended to at least Markham/Sheppard. If this still were to happen there'd be a transit dead zone between Agincourt and Malvern. The loop not only resolves that but gives Scarberians two options to Yonge St, over one. Two options to Malvern over one. And it's not that I'm against the line heading into STC, it's just that the proposed route abandons Sheppard too early. The density at Midland, Brimley and especially McCowan make for more suitable routing than through the wasteland.

"extension to Toronto Zoo via Malvern/ Morningside Hts."

I only mentioned the Zoo because there are existing CP/CN lines in the vinicity which much like Enviro mentioned could be converted to shared commuter use hence the line running through the heart of Malvern and Morningside Heights and relativiely close to the Zoo would be utilized. I also considered all the new housing development on Sheppard east of Morningside as well as Morningside Hts and a way of increasing accesibility to one of Toronto's few tourist attractions. Plus from the Zoo a spur could also head up to the proposed Pickering Airport site.
 
"Not two lines, a loop!"

I still have little to no idea where your planned route will go. A loop that ends in a point is equivalent to two lines. Not only is a "loop through Malvern" vague, it'll cost many hundreds of millions of millions of dollars, maybe $1 billion, maybe more, who knows. There is no airport in Pickering. There are no people NE of Malvern at all, meaning virtually no larger area to draw from, unless the raccoons in Rouge Park start taking transit.

The whole ward Malvern is in contains just over 60,000 people. If a 50% transit usage was achieved (which will never happen - the ward's residents currently use the TTC only 22% (work) and 15% (non-work) of the time), those ~70,000 daily rides will be divded amongst two rapid transit lines and a half dozen other bus routes. Why should we build rapid transit to places where it is so obviously overkill? 20,000 rides a day deserves a bus, not an elevated light rail line that "can be converted to subway."

"I'm sure anywhere that sprang up some condos deserves its own subway. Gee, I know, lets get a line out to Mimico!"

That's not a terrible idea - a line to Mimico along Queen would be far more heavily used than two Malvern subways.

"To paraphrase, why is STC so important that it desperately needs two rapid transit lines?"

I've already answered that, and I wouldn't put priority on the construction of either one, anyway. Since I don't think Malvern needs one line, why does it need two? I asked first, twice.

"If this still were to happen there'd be a transit dead zone between Agincourt and Malvern."

Those plans are from the era when Sheppard would have gone straight to STC, therefore, no dead zone.

"And it's not that I'm against the line heading into STC, it's just that the proposed route abandons Sheppard too early."

It abandons Sheppard to run on a direct, short path to Scarborough Town Centre, not run out on a far longer path to the Morningside Heights subdivision.

"The density at Midland, Brimley and especially McCowan make for more suitable routing than through the wasteland."

There is no density along Sheppard east of Midland. Unless you're talking about Milliken - which both has more people and is denser than Malvern, or any comparable suburban neighbourhood in the GTA, for what it's worth - but your two lines to Malvern do not address Milliken or the fact that the wasteland could easily be redeveloped into an area containing tens of thousands of people and jobs living within a few blocks of stations. Because Malvern is special, underprivileged, and the only part of Scarborough that anyone not from Scarborough is familiar with. Because they were thinking about extending the RT near there decades ago and 20 year old plans must always be followed to the letter.

"I also considered all the new housing development on Sheppard east of Morningside as well as Morningside Hts and a way of increasing accesibility to one of Toronto's few tourist attractions."

I'm sure anywhere that sprang up some subdivisions deserves its own subway. Gee, I know, lets get a line out to Aurora! Some people would use it to get to the zoo, yes, but what happens when the zoo is closed? Who would ride it south before noon?
 
why is STC so important that it desperately needs two rapid transit lines?
Click to expand...

Because it is the largest trip generator in the GTA east of Yonge. Because it is a designated centre in evey provincial and city planning document.

Oh, and there was a secondary plan for the so-called "wasteland" that came out on the forum a little while ago which proposed thousands of housing unitsin the area.
 
Fine Malvern doesn't deserve a subway because anywhere east of McCowan is eternal wilderness. If the Sheppard line dead ends in STC you're destroying any chance of future planners to come along and expand where they see fit. My plan leaves the option open, that's all I was saying.

People see the reasoning in bringing the subway to Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Mississauga yet the slightest mention of serving east Scarborough or Durham and everyone's shrieking at me. Malvern in of itself may not be worthy but looking at the big picture its geographical location makes it a gateway to Toronto. A regional terminal: routes from Markham, Pickering, Uxbridge, a link to the PROPOSED Pickering Airport which will be built within 30 years,etc.

TTC's Original Plan for Sheppard:
subway-5110-02.jpg


For Scarorough RT:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5107-09.jpg

It's not rocket science to link both lines at Sheppard-Markham. I'd sooner recommend to an impatient person to take the Brimley bus from STC to a new Brimley Stn then deny/ overlook the benefits of such routing. My idea wouldn't doom anyone to sit through the entire loop experience either as the Sheppard-Markham Stn allows for transfer, kind of like a inter loop. From this inner loop, the outer loop via the existing CN/CP track through M&M and Zoo then back via Sheppard East

I'm trying to upload my own map to show you all soon.
 
"Fine Malvern doesn't deserve a subway because anywhere east of McCowan is eternal wilderness."

I don't think Malvern deserves two subways because it is a relatively isolated community that will top out at about 75,000 people, surrounded by a huge untouchable park. If miketoronto's bus ideas were implemented there along with some GO projects, no one from Malvern would be complaining and no one would suggest building rapid transit there.

"If the Sheppard line dead ends in STC you're destroying any chance of future planners to come along and expand where they see fit."

Who says it has to dead end there? It can easily be continued east to Markham & Ellesmere, to UTSC, etc. Doesn't mean it should, but it could. The Danforth line could easily be run up McCowan instead - there's more people there than Malvern, a lot more when you add in the Denison area, Markville, etc.

"Malvern in of itself may not be worthy but looking at the big picture its geographical location makes it a gateway to Toronto. A regional terminal: routes from Markham, Pickering, Uxbridge, a link to the PROPOSED Pickering Airport which will be built within 30 years,etc."

I'm sorry, Malvern is only a gateway for raccoons. Only a small percentage of Markhamites live east of Markham and since there's few roads that connect Markham and Malvern, getting to this subway won't be easy. A Stouffville line improvement would be easier, cheaper, and better for Markham. Getting from Pickering to Malvern might be even harder, not to mention farther. Uxbridge? C'mon, the entire population of Uxbridge could be housed in STC condos within 3 years. The airport may never be built - it's not a factor.

"People see the reasoning in bringing the subway to Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Mississauga yet the slightest mention of serving east Scarborough or Durham and everyone's shrieking at me."

A subway to Scarborough Town Centre is already taking the Danforth line out as equivalently far as the Yonge line to Hwy 7, the Bloor line to Tomken & Dundas, or the Spadina line to Jane just below Hwy 7. Just because it's in the 416 doesn't mean east Scarborough deserves whatever the rest of the city gets. A line must be drawn in the sand somewhere, and Scarborough Town Centre is as good a place as any to do so.

"It's not rocket science to link both lines at Sheppard-Markham."

Figuring out why you would link two lines there is rocket science - you're not supporting the STC node and not even serving the bulk of Malvern if you do that.

I'm waiting patiently for your map :)
 
The problem with using Malvern as a gateway is that there are no roads in that area that run east to Durham. Everything is cut off by Rouge Park. People from Pickering trying to get to Toronto arrive through the 401 corridor. It wouldn't make sense for them to go all the way up north to Malvern to get on the subway. Not to mention the fact that they are well-served by GO which offers a much quicker ride to most destinations.

I'm confused, though, why Sheppard and Markham is a good place to loop a line. I think there were vague plans for development back in the eighties, but there is really nothing there but a couple low-rise office buildings and gas stations.
 
I'm baaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Figuring out why you would link two lines there is rocket science - you're not supporting the STC node and not even serving the bulk of Malvern if you do that."

Like I said earlier will STC be such a node once the system's expanded? Think about it.

"The problem with using Malvern as a gateway is that there are no roads in that area that run east to Durham."

Tywn Rivers, Old Finch, Steeles via Beare or Sewell.

"Sheppard and Markham is a good place to loop a line. I think there were vague plans for development back in the eighties..."

That's exactly what I based my idea on, the original plan. If you notice my map West Toronto gets alot more than the east. The Scarbourough inequality debate may never die.

"I'm waiting patiently for your map"

Well wait no longer. Of course this is largely metafictional but if more people pressed the government with plans like this border-border subway travel and subways placed in dense, existing nodes would be alot closer to achievement than most would imagine.

newplan2.JPG


Note my extravagant plan for Pearson: a five level transit tower uniting people-mover, taxi, bus, subway and train service. Other special features include shuttle trams linking some major hospitals and schools (e.g. Sunnybrook) to the nearest subway/ RT. I left out a DRL sans express stops on Blue 22 since a full scale Queen-Eglinton line diminishes its purpose.

"Who says it has to dead end there? It can easily be continued east to Markham & Ellesmere, to UTSC, etc. Doesn't mean it should, but it could. The Danforth line could easily be run up McCowan instead - there's more people there than Malvern, a lot more when you add in the Denison area, Markville, etc."

The Sheppard-Markham Stn would connect to a ROW running straight up to Markham GO. That's what I meant by gateway, not simply Malvern itself. And UTSC would be approached by the south via a new Eglinton Line.

"A line must be drawn in the sand somewhere"

Then let that be not be merely STC when neraly half of Scarborough would still be mass transit-less and nodes like Centennial College, Morningside, Port Union and yes Malvern still exist further east.
 
Re: Re: If any new expansion could be done what would it be

Like I said earlier will STC be such a node once the system's expanded? Think about it.
Click to expand...

To repeat myself, yes it will. Scarborough Centre is the largest trip generator in the GTA. It has thousands of office jobs, large numbers of condos, and one of the largest shopping centres in the region. On top of that, it's a centrally-located spot for buses from all over Scarborough.
 
Your map isn't loading - I can't criticize your plans if I can't see them...
 
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