Transit Fantasy Maps

[socialwoe]

Sorry for the delay, I'm new to this. Hope it works this time.

The greatest city in the world, deserves the best. Social apathy only leads political do-nothingness, smog pollution, being late for everything, etc. In spite of your criticisms if I inspire just one person to believe in transit expansion again I've done my part.

To summarize some key points:

Two main east west lines- Bloor-Sheppard and Queen-Eglinton.

Queen-Eglinton: the folly of original subway planning was to overlook these two vital corridors. Starting and ending in Scarborough (Birchmount&Kingston to Rouge Hill GO) this line serves the multitude of Toronto's points of interest including Scarboro Bluffs, the Beaches, Studio District, St Lawrence area, central Harbourfront& ferry docks (including relocated Int. Rochester ferry), CBD, Entertainment District, Chinatown-Kensington, Queen West shopping district, High Park, Swansea-Mimico redevelopment, Humber College, Sherway Gardens, Cloverdale-Six Points development, Etobicoke CC, Airport Corp. Ctr, Airport, Skyway&Toronto Congress Centres, York CC, Eglinton Way Shopping district, Yonge-Eglinton, Leaside Industrial area, Ontario Sci Ctr, Eglinton Square area, Kennedy-Eglinton-Guildwood GO Stns, Morningside/ Lawrence/Kingston area, UTSC, Rogue Hill GO. It's amazing we've lasted this long without this line.

Also included of course is a BD extension to Square 1, YUS extensions into York Region and what I've been trying to non-visually explain for some time now, a modest loop through northeast Toronto (the racoons be damned!:evil !) which could easy well be reworked as population increases, the park's converted to functional residential and commercial space and veins head into Markham as you say (plans were made for a Markham Bypass via extending either Neilson or Morningside to Steeles) and Pickering.

 

[cdl42]

Guess I'll be a nice guy and give socialwoe a hand...

Paging Dr. Khatru... paging Dr. Khatru...

 

[spmarshall]

Ok. My opinion on this plan.

To be frank, it's far fetched and flies in the face of most recent plans. (Two lines to the zoo?)

Too many stations on the new lines. Sheppard West should probably only have a stop at Bathurst, and continue the trend
from Sheppard East of having a local 84 bus serve places in between. And station spacing on Queen West is worse than B-D.

Too much an empthasis on east-west rather than north-south. A N-S line east of Yonge is needed more than a subway to Rouge Hill (should only go to Guildwood if we went with your basic plan).

And I don't get the kinks in the Queen Street line (is Spadina South in Chinatown?). Better to split the YUS if you want to get into the St. Lawrence nabe.

The enthusiasm is something else, though.

 

[EnviroTO]

I agree with spmarshall. Two key issues:
- Need some North-South capacity
- Need to make journies quicker with less stops and direct routing

As there is no timeline for the plan it is impossible to say whether or not such a network would be warranted. It isn't warranted today, but in the future it could be. At the time such a network is warranted it would still be necessary to resolve the two key issues regardless. Having a zoo as a last stop on any route is a mistake... if there was something past the zoo that was worth going to then a station at the zoo since the line is passing it anyways would make sense... but the zoo just doesn't have a year round 5 to 7 days per week draw.

 

[unimaginative2]

I'm definitely enthusiastically pro-transit (and subway) expansion, but I have some issues with the plan. Once again, it seems as though far north-eastern Scarborough is the "in" area to serve with subway dream maps. I think Sherway is in some other maps. The problem with it, of course, is that there are rather few people who live out there, and virtually no people who live beyond there since continuing road links to Durham are non-existent.

If I can convert only one person from a Queen line, I will be happy. There are a number of problems with a Queen line, as compared to a DRL-style line on Front and the Railway corridor. The biggest problem is that the City doesn't want to encourage any development in the neighbourhoods along Queen east and west of Yonge. They want to maintain the existing low-rise residential neighbourhoods. By contrast, the area served by the Front-Railway route is slated for intensive re-development, including the Fort York area, south side of Union Station, East Bayfront, West Don Lands, Port Lands, Studio District and even the Gerrard Square area. the Front-Railway corridor also serves far more major trip generators, including the Exhibition/National Trade Centre/Ontario Place, Cityplace, SkyDome, Air Canada Centre, St. Lawrence Neighbourhood, among others. Most of all, it connects to the YUS line at Union, the major transit hub for the whole region.

 

[socialwoe]

Thank you cdl42, this process was harder than I thought!

"Two lines to the zoo?"

I guess I see the error in my ways now, but I had to at least show you what my loop proposal would look like. Originally I was drawing the Sheppard branch out to Brock Rd, Pickering (serving Malvern indirectly at Neilson Stn.) via the GO Stn and Town Ctr and the SRT up to Markham GO but changed my plan to the loop cause I thought Malvern, M. Hts and the Zoo would draw more people.

"Too many stations on the new lines... And station spacing on Queen West is worse than B-D."

I figured the closer to the core subways get the closer distance between stops should be eg. YUS Downtown loop seconds apart compared to North Yonge 1km apart. Each subsequent line further north has farther spaced stops.

"Too much an empthasis on east-west rather than north-south.A N-S line east of Yonge is needed more than a subway to Rouge Hill."

I thought about DRL on Don Mills but ultimately figured DRT would be better. Besides it'd be overkill to add another line south of Queen, even I have my limits. As for Rouge Hill, this far-far in the future, but I'd hope to get a line at least to Morningside/West Hill/UTSC: the area is dense enough to support it and far enough east to balance out the subway.

" And I don't get the kinks in the Queen Street line (is Spadina South in Chinatown?)"

Yes Spadina South is in Chinatown but I reframed calling it that because it also serves Kensington Market and it would cause less confusion to just name the intersection. It's a gem cause it would run right under the Chinatown Ctr with a western exit on the north side of Dundas at Kensington and include a mezzanine modelled after an imperial Chinese palace.

"Better to split the YUS if you want to get into the St. Lawrence nabe."

The St Lawrence/Queen's Quay diversion was included to lessen the need for DRL East and rectify the harbourfront's cut-off status (train tracks, Gardiner, condos) from the city. I also was going to show a relocated Rochester Ferry site linked right to Yonge Quay.

"The enthusiasm is something else, though."

Thank you. Like I said as long as someone gets what I'm trying to do here, the closer we may come to better transit as apathy resolves nothing.

 

[Darkstar416]

Also, kind of dumb that the Queen line would veer all the way south to Queen's Quay, but not stop at Union Station along the way.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Two lines to the Zoo and three lines to Sherway...even better than I thought :evil

Maybe you're reading my opposition of subways to Malvern and beyond as apathy but I do support massive subway expansion, as much or greater than anyone else on this forum.
I certainly bring up the topic a lot.
The very least I'd do is extend the system at all 6 current terminals, Eglinton, and the DRL.
These are all extensions that are needed today - my fantasy plan would be much more extensive.

So, let the criticism begin - I'd be more detailed but previous posters have been thorough already.

Your plan indicates that while you are familiar with maps of Scarborough, you are unfamiliar with the real version.
The Malvern/Zoo/Pickering area does not warrant anything of a higher order than express buses.
Why spend $10 billion on useless subways when a few GO trains could be run along the midtown GO line for maybe 1/1000th the cost (and also taking like 1/3 the travel time).
It'd be much cheaper to buy every house in Rosedale and relocate the Zoo there.
It'd be cheaper and easier to build a subway mobius strip to serve your fantasy world.

Yes, in 50 years there could be a Pickering airport and the Seaton lands may be inhabited.
But...the Seaton lands will probably have 50,000 people and the airport will not deserve a subway any more than Pearson does - and Pearson doesn't deserve a subway either.
You suggest developing the Rouge Park to support your subways.
Why not also suggest filling in High Park with CityPlace West?

The entire bus ridership in Scarborough east of Markham is, what, 100,000 at most?
And this needs three subway lines?
If all that trackage was placed on lines going north or west, we'd have subways to Aurora, Brampton, etc.
Your plan is too focused on Etobicoke and East Scarborough.
Just because these areas are in the 416 doesn't mean they deserve or can support all these subways.

You said "I figured the closer to the core subways get the closer distance between stops should be "
Then why have Birchmount and Shorting stops?
God forbid someone have to walk more than five minutes to get to a subway platform.
Who honestly thinks no one will walk further?

A Sheppard West expansion beyond Downsview absolutely must, must, MUST run along Finch - it is utterly worthless if it does not.
Jane & Finch, Rexdale, Humber, Woodbine, etc., are all in a line and that line is on Finch, not Sheppard.

The lack of a Don Mills/DRL/Weston line is glaring.
Imagine how many more people will get dumped on the Yonge because of all the east/west lines.

Your Bloor/Sheppard and Queen/Eglinton lines would be interlined?
Someone would be able to travel in a 'straight' line from Albion to Square One by way of Sheppard & Markham (twice)?

"Attention all passengers on the Rexdale, Sheppard, Malvern, Scarborough, Danforth, Bloor, Mississauga line, we are currently experiencing 3 simultaneous "power outages" at various stations."
"Due to this lengthy delay, we expect 4 more "power outages" by the time it's all cleared up."

As mentioned, the kinks in the Queen line and the non-stop at Union are bizarre and the line should run under ~Front.
Doesn't mean there should never be a Queen line, just not right now.

And I realize it's just a transit fan's map, but Square One gets no elevator or washroom while Centennial Park and Trethewey do?

edited for ease of reading.

 

[unimaginative2]

The care you took to make the map is impressive. I didn't even notice all the little washroom and wheelchair logos. Of course, all new subway stations would be legally required to be wheelchair accessible.

I can guarantee that development in Rouge Park will never happen. Once Morningside Heights is built out, that will be pretty much the end of development in that area. I don't really see Malvern as a condo hotspot.

 

[EnviroTO]

Map at www.transit.toronto.on.ca...

I don't have time to modify the map but basically these are the only changes I would make:
- End purple line at Malvern until there is something beyond worth extending to.
- End blue line at Guildwood or Morningside. Guildwood has a GO/VIA connection so at least reach that point for connectivity.
- Redirect red line north from Basin, through Pape, and rejoin at Thorncliffe Park unless Coxwell sees serious rezoning and development.
- Redirect yellow line west of Exhibition to follow Weston corridor and Albion Rd to Albion.
- Extend yellow line north from Finch to Langstaff to connect with GO and VIVA terminal.
- Don't implement any of this until a proper LRT/BRT system is in place on all these routes first because subways are expensive.

Connectivity:
MISSISSAUGA
- Purple line ends at Long Branch with connections to GO, Harbourfront/Lakeshore LRT, Mississauga Transit lakeshore services.
- Green line ends at Sherway with possible extension into Mississauga.
- Blue line ends at Renforth with connection to Mississauga BRT and possible extension into Mississauga.
BRAMPTON/BRAMALEA
- Yellow line ends at Albion with possible extension to 427/407 intersection / CN north line for easy connections to Brampton/Bramalea.
VAUGHAN
- Red line ends at Steeles West / Vaughan City Centre for connection to 407 transit and VIVA.
RICHMOND HILL
- Yellow line ends at Langstaff with connections to GO and VIVA.
MARKHAM
- Red line ends at Steeles East with connections to VIVA bound for Markham Centre with possible extension on line to Markham Centre.
- Green line ends at Alton Towers with connections to east Markham transit services and possible extension to 407 to connect with 407 transit services, CN north Toronto line, and possible business park bound by 407, Markham Rd, 14th, and McCowan.
FUTURE PICKERING AIRPORT
- Purple line ends at Malvern with possible extension a short distance north on Neilson to connect to CP line if Pickering Airport built.
DURHAM
- Blue line connects to Guildwood with GO trains into Durham region and VIA connections to points east of Toronto. Easy access to 401 east from limited access "Old 2A" from Morningside for bus services.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"- Don't implement any of this until a proper LRT/BRT system is in place on all these routes first because subways are expensive."

If they do that, some of the subways will never be built. The Danforth line may never be extended to STC because they built the RT instead.

Also, building mid-level infrastructure between regular buses and subways just uncecessarily adds massive capital costs if subways are the end-game scenario...might as well build them now, especially since their cost is going up faster than inflation.

 

[socialwoe]

"Also, kind of dumb that the Queen line would veer all the way south to Queen's Quay, but not stop at Union Station along the way."

Then it would have to bypass Queen-Yonge and just serve Union and Osgoode. I figured a new stop at Queen would better connect to Nathan Philips and C

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Osgoode is closer to Nathan Phillips Square than Yonge.

 

[socialwoe]

City Hall.

"A Sheppard West expansion beyond Downsview absolutely must, must, MUST run along Finch...The lack of a Don Mills/DRL/Weston line is glaring. Imagine how many more people will get dumped on the Yonge because of all the east/west lines."

This is where buses take over. I can't imagine someone getting depressed over having 25 minutes shaved off their commute just to mope about a one minute bus ride. Besides if Sheppard ran up to Finch it'd overlap with the YUS extension, what double-stations at Chesswood and Keele/Finch? At least Sheppard West could be run above ground.

"Your Bloor/Sheppard and Queen/Eglinton lines would be interlined? Someone would be able to travel in a 'straight' line from Albion to Square One by way of Sheppard & Markham (twice)?"

Thank goodness I didn't loop all the lines including YUS then. I never expected anyone to need to travel the whole line to get where they're going but yes if someone entering Toronto from Mississauga wanting North York or the Beaches would have multiple options.

"And I realize it's just a transit fan's map, but Square One gets no elevator or washroom while Centennial Park and Trethewey do? ...I didn't even notice all the little washroom and wheelchair logos."

It's painstaking perfecting every little detail. Anyway here's what I really came on to post.

"As there is no timeline for the plan it is impossible to say whether or not such a network would be warranted."

Well I copyrighted it 2125 though it could be completed alot earlier. I like to say the beginnings of this plan or any plan could begin as early as 2008 but since Pitfield lost? Here's what I'd implement...

Phase One:
To be completed by 2015
YUS-Downsview to Steeles but via elevated subway from
Downsview to Keele/York Blvd.
BD-Kipling to Sherway via elevated subway
Eglinton BRT- Airport express only stopping at future subway
sites
Don Mills BRT- From Union to Steeles via Gardiner/ DVP
SRT-fully upgraded
beginnings of Danforth East, Kingston Road, Markham Road
and Lawrence East streetcars

Phase Two:
To be completed by 2030
Beginnings of Queen Line (likely Ronchesvalles to Yonge)
Beginnings of Eglinton Line (likely Allen to Jane)
BD-Kennedy to Guildwood
Sheppard-conversion to LRT:east to Agincourt, west to
Downsview
SRT-extended to Markham-Sheppard
Lawrence East streetcar from Markham Stn to Rouge Hill GO

Phase Three:
To be completed by 2045
Queen-east to Coxwell, west to South Kingsway(Humber Loop)
Eglinton-west to Martin Grove, east to Yonge
BD-extension to UTSC, people-mover installed linking West Hill
Subway to Centenary Hosp. and Centennial College.
Sheppard-east to Meadowvale
SRT- completion at Metro Zoo though possibility to continue
onto Pickering Airport site
YUS- north to Langstaff GO and Vaughan Corp. Ctr.

Phase Four:
To be completed by 2060
Queen- east to Birchmount via Bluffs
west to Long Branch
Eglinton- west to Renforth via Dixon/Pearson
east to Don Mills, Don Mills BRT split into 2 routes to
increase service reliability north & south of Eglinton
BD- Mayor Hazel-bless her heart- finally passes on opening
the door for MCC and Square One extension
Sheppard-west to Dixon via ROW over Humber Valley
completion of Scarborough streetcar line from Birchmount to Rouge Hill via Cedarbrae Mall.

Phase Five
To be completed by 2075
BD- property acquisition allows for conversion of SRT to full-
scale subway
Eglinton- Renforth and Hwy 427 Extension south to Sherway
Don Mills to Kennedy Extension. Acquisition of
former BD East to now run from Sherway to UTSC.
Queen- completion north to Sherway
Sheppard- completion north to Alion Mall, BRT to Woodbridge

Phase Six
To be completed by 2090
Eglinton-completion east to Rouge Hill, BRT to Brock, Pickering.

 

[Darkstar416]

Man, I better start taking my vitamins.