Transit Fantasy Maps

[doady]

doady, have you figured out an approximate cost of implementing your system?

Not really. I don't think it is unrealistic though...

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Toronto does not build subway stations on curves. It's an absolute rule for the TTC.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with those stations, but a subway train is not capable of 90 degree turns. Union is the absolute bare minimum curvature, and it swings out over a deceptively large distance. We wouldn't likely build like that anymore, either.

You've got to remember that the point of a transit route isn't to connect the dots between nodes. It's to get people where they want to go. Are there really large numbers of people going from St. Lawrence to Little Italy? Probably not, and definitely not enough to justify an underground subway route. Established travel patterns in the city are east-west and north-south.

I meant trains make sharp, screeching L-TURNS and U-turns all over the system. No one thinks thats abjectly odd since trains are compartmentalized to make turns and not be rigid. Following one street for a subtantial length then diverting upto another street doesn't sound remotely odd, zig-zagging or technically impossible to do. For pete's sake there's a major rail line running underneath Mont Royal and downtown Montreal, in a city with an underwater subway nonetheless. Why are we so rigid to change/ unconventional ideas?

Yes there might not be a crash load of people that directly need St Lawrence-Little Italy, but there might be tens of thousands that want the 511/506 from Jarvis/Esplanade within awaiting the 65A, on-street seeking a way into Union, then a lengthy subway+streetcar commute. Bisecting major arteries at major intersections benefits everyone and that's not even considering the actuul touristic/cultural/ trip-generating relevancy of placing stops in St Lawrence, Queen West or other demand spots. Does SCC or RHC have the same recreational importance of the downtown core, or are they not terminii where a number of routes happen to stop? Do the majority of commuters through those centres, break from their travels to buy stuff in the mall? And even if they did, does that really contribute to the socio-historical/cultural significance of those areas or furthering commercial hegemony?

 

[jn_12]

You've got to remember that the point of a transit route isn't to connect the dots between nodes. It's to get people where they want to go. Are there really large numbers of people going from St. Lawrence to Little Italy? Probably not, and definitely not enough to justify an underground subway route. Established travel patterns in the city are east-west and north-south.

People might not want to go from Wellesley to Rosedale, but there are stops there. Just because that exact route isn't popular doesn't mean people wouldn't use that line. I know there is an established north-south, east-west transit pattern, but that's only because there aren't any other options. If people were given the option to traverse the city without having to go across and down, or up and then across then it might alter the way we think of our city.

I'm not saying build a subway at 45 degrees just for the sake of it. I'm saying if there are important pockets that warrant a subway stop then why not find a way to service them? It might also take some pressure off of some of our over-crowded street car lines too.

 

[CDL.TO]

it is able to have different trains (designed for large amounts of people carrying luggage?) and frequencies. Or instead perhaps it is actually light-rail or it uses standard gauge... none of these are specified on the map for a reason.

That makes some sense, though as many have pointed out there are many cities that have subways to airports.

As for the base map, I drew it myself, partly based on Google maps. This is a fantasy map so it shows some roads that don't exist yet (like the future extension of Creekbank Road in Mississauga) and some others have been modified. And of course Google is quite outdated to begin with and GTA is growing very quickly. The base map also shows a complete Terminal 1 at the airport which I found the plan for at the GTAA website.

Wow, really!? Good job, it looks really professional. Would you consider posting just your base map (perhaps with a copyright to yourself in one corner) so that others wanting to make a dream map or other Toronto map have something to work with?

I am surprised there so much opposition to the Bay subway line yet none at all for Hurontario subway! In fact one person even called for the Hurontario line to be even longer!

I think people are simply choosing to ignore it.

 

[JasonParis]

I know there is an established north-south, east-west transit pattern, but that's only because there aren't any other options. If people were given the option to traverse the city without having to go across and down, or up and then across then it might alter the way we think of our city.

Which is why we need a DRL. It enhances our east-west, north-south travel patterns while also connecting nodes. It would very well alter the way we think about getting around this city.

BTW, welcome yllianos! Great first posts!

 

[doady]

IMO, subways should concentrate on serving corridors. The direct connection between different nodes should be left to the commuter rail system.

What about the airTrain which uses the same kind of technology as Vancouver? Or that doesn't really count?

I meant the subway system itself doesn't reach the airport.

The AirTrain is short rail line that at each end connects to the subway and the Long Island Rail Road to each terminal of the airport. I specifically had the AirTrain in mind when I drew the Airport line on my map and you can see the similarities.

Great map btw, though I should point that the Mississauga Transitway is not line in itself, but rather corridor for many bus lines, including GO Bus, and that may include lines to York U or Islington.

 

[doady]

Wow, really!? Good job, it looks really professional. Would you consider posting just your base map (perhaps with a copyright to yourself in one corner) so that others wanting to make a dream map or other Toronto map have something to work with?

If people really want I could post it.

I think people are simply choosing to ignore it.

Haha, I think so too. I don't see why though. Despite not having any subway connection, Hurontario is much busier than Yonge in York Region: 19 Hurontario has 23,000 riders per weekday while VIVA Blue only has 16,000, only slightly higher than 1 Dundas. Yet it is the Yonge extension that people would support more.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

How is that 23,000 split re: north/south of Square One? Those 16,000 on Viva are all going the same way north of Finch station.

 

[Chuck]

I am a big advocate of diagonal, node linking subways. When I'm in my car, my most established short cuts include streets such as Vaughan Road, Trethewey, Chaplin Crescent, Old Forest Hill and Black Creek Drive.

 

[Disparishun]

Despite not having any subway connection, Hurontario is much busier than Yonge in York Region: 19 Hurontario has 23,000 riders per weekday while VIVA Blue only has 16,000, only slightly higher than 1 Dundas. Yet it is the Yonge extension that people would support more.

Mind you, VIVA Blue is only one of the buses that do Yonge in York Region: certainly the GO Yonge 99 bus, possibly the GO Newmarket B bus, maybe the YRT 5 and 77 routes (which go up Yonge from Finch then branch off at Clark and at Centre respectively). And don't forget all the TTC Steeles buses which load Yonge from Finch to Steeles as well.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If all the routes feeding into Finch are added together then, yes, Yonge north of Finch is the busiest bus zone in the city. The ridership along Yonge drops off as you go north, but the subway's only going as far as #7. Virtually everything between Cummer and Clark will be redeveloped, too.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Apart from expenses and general apathy from the public there's really nothing stopping such a line from existing, and in effect bringing much needed traffic and tourism to at-risk dentrificated neighborhoods.

What's an 'at-risk dentrificated neighborhood'? One at risk of being lorded over by Dentrobate54, or one where people are at risk of not affording toothpaste?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

An "at-risk dentrificated neighborhood" is one in which a transit line terminates without "contribut[ing] to the socio-historical/cultural significance of those areas or furthering commercial hegemony."

Like, duh!

 

[doady]

Mind you, VIVA Blue is only one of the buses that do Yonge in York Region: certainly the GO Yonge 99 bus, possibly the GO Newmarket B bus, maybe the YRT 5 and 77 routes (which go up Yonge from Finch then branch off at Clark and at Centre respectively). And don't forget all the TTC Steeles buses which load Yonge from Finch to Steeles as well.

That is mostly due to the subway though... Hurontario has no subway station, though it does already have many overlapping routes anyways (10, 66, 67, etc). And despite the fact that Yonge connects to the subway and is much longer, the 99, VIVA Blue and Newmarket B combined are still less than route 19 by itself, let alone 19 plus the 202 express.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

People might not want to go from Wellesley to Rosedale, but there are stops there. Just because that exact route isn't popular doesn't mean people wouldn't use that line. I know there is an established north-south, east-west transit pattern, but that's only because there aren't any other options. If people were given the option to traverse the city without having to go across and down, or up and then across then it might alter the way we think of our city. I'm not saying build a subway at 45 degrees just for the sake of it. I'm saying if there are important pockets that warrant a subway stop then why not find a way to service them? It might also take some pressure off of some of our over-crowded street car lines too.

True on every count. Someone might not want to go from St Lawrence Market to Kensington Market- though I can see the practicality in that- but they might want Toronto Western Hospital and not want to take three modes of transit to get there. Lines really don't have to follow street grids to a tee, especially if people start saying one roadway doesn't have enough nearby nodes to justify it. Seriously how many nodes did YUS and BD have before their subways, you know. We've closed off our minds to reason just blindly hoping for new subways in illogically underpopulated areas that'll have to bussed into.

What's an 'at-risk dentrificated neighborhood'? One at risk of being lorded over by Dentrobate54, or one where people are at risk of not affording toothpaste?

gentrification is a phenomenon in which low-cost, physically deteriorated neighborhoods undergo physical renovation and an increase in property values, along with an influx of wealthier residents who may displace the prior residents. Proponents of gentrification focus on the benefits of urban renewal, such as renewed investment in physically deteriorating locales, improved access to lending capital for low-income mortgage seekers as their property values increase, increased rates of lending to minority and first-time home purchasers to invest in the now-appreciating area and improved physical conditions for renters. Often initiated by private capital, gentrification has been linked to reductions in crime rates, increased property values, increased tolerance of sexual minorities, and renewed community activism.

You peeps can joke and kid all you want. I just want to know when I visit downtown my trip doesn't involve waiting in the freezing cold for streetcars that take forever to arrive and get you places. It's not too much to ask.