Transit Fantasy Maps

[tsm1072]

Yep. So much more logical to have the major transit interchange (BD+Line 4+LRT) in Scarborough be here:

View attachment 305132

And not here:

View attachment 305133

We will never look back on this decision and wonder what the hell we were thinking. /s

Sheppard and McCowan makes a lot of sense as the terminus point for lines, plenty of space to build a station that allows very efficient transfer between multiple lines and modes. You can also build a nice large maintenance and storage yard on all that land in the CP yard that isn't being used by CP. Also, if you want to plan for the very long term (50+ years). This location will allow transfers to trains to/from Peterborough (maybe even Ottawa and Montreal), a GO midtown line, as well as potential GO trains on the CP line through Northern Pickering and central Oshawa.

These things may not happen, but allowing for it will save money and time in the future. The Line 2 Kipling and Kennedy extensions will start to reap the benefits of terminating on a rail corridor in 5-10 years, about 50 years after they were built.

 

[afransen]

Scarborough Centre would never have become so built up if it wasn't for the transit we built there. Development follows transit, and there is tonnes of land at Sheppard ripe for rezoning and new density. I'm not saying either option for where line 4 could go is ideal but while STC would serve residents better short term, while I think keeping it going along Sheppard is better for futureproofing the network, by springing up new development, and allowing for easier future extensions. My line 7 concept was also made to address the issue by better serving stc as well as sheppard

Except the Ellesmere BRT is terminating in STC. We're making a transfer city transit plan for Scarborough.

 

[KhalilHeron]

Except the Ellesmere BRT is terminating in STC. We're making a transfer city transit plan for Scarborough

It's a bus... Buses are very flexible. The Scarborough-Durham BRT is more so meant to serve travel between Scarborough/Toronto, and Durham region, not within Scarborough. Ideally, it could run up along Mccowan to Sheppard after dropping off passengers at STC, but if not it's not that big a deal. What's better for the region long term shouldn't be sacrificed so a few people can make less transfers

 

[Rainforest]

The interchange doesn't have to be in the place of highest density. At the northern end of the Yonge line, North York Centre station has more density around it than the Finch terminus, yet all connecting routes go to Finch. That doesn't seem to be a problem.

In Scarborough, I can see benefits of either option: main terminus at Sheppard&McCowan vs main terminus at STC. Riders coming from all places north of the 401 would prefer Sheppard&McCowan, then their buses will not be stuck on the 401 bridges / underpasses. And, people riding along Sheppard from the east of McCowan won't need to duck south of the 401 in order to continue their westward trip.

On the other hand, a terminus at STC would work better for some riders going to Centennial College, UTSC, or into the Durham region.

So, both options have their pros and cons, and neither is horribly bad. Overall, I would be leaning towards Sheppard&McCowan. Merely because once the SSE terminus is placed there, it will be easier to keep the Sheppard Line under/on/above Sheppard rather than have it duck south of the 401.

 

[ARG1]

The interchange doesn't have to be in the place of highest density. At the northern end of the Yonge line, North York Centre station has more density around it than the Finch terminus, yet all connecting routes go to Finch. That doesn't seem to be a problem.

In Scarborough, I can see benefits of either option: main terminus at Sheppard&McCowan vs main terminus at STC. Riders coming from all places north of the 401 would prefer Sheppard&McCowan, then their buses will not be stuck on the 401 bridges / underpasses. And, people riding along Sheppard from the east of McCowan won't need to duck south of the 401 in order to continue their westward trip.

On the other hand, a terminus at STC would work better for some riders going to Centennial College, UTSC, or into the Durham region.

So, both options have their pros and cons, and neither is horribly bad. Overall, I would be leaning towards Sheppard&McCowan. Merely because once the SSE terminus is placed there, it will be easier to keep the Sheppard Line under/on/above Sheppard rather than have it duck south of the 401.

Also if Eglinton East is built, we're likely going to see a potential LRT along sheppard east to UTSC and malvern, so its not like its a dead end interchange, students at UTSC and Pickering travellers will still be served.

 

[north-of-anything]

The only way Sheppard/McCowan would be a rational place for an interchange is if there were widespread changes to the built form and street grid of the area. I'm talking Finch West Station-style redevelopment at a minimum. I am very pessimistic that this will happen instead of a carbon copy of the current Kennedy station area.

 

[afransen]

It's a bus... Buses are very flexible. The Scarborough-Durham BRT is more so meant to serve travel between Scarborough/Toronto, and Durham region, not within Scarborough. Ideally, it could run up along Mccowan to Sheppard after dropping off passengers at STC, but if not it's not that big a deal. What's better for the region long term shouldn't be sacrificed so a few people can make less transfers

Every single person going between NYCC and STC will need to transfer. Transfer City. We're spending $5B to eliminate the evil 'linear transfer' between STC and Bloor Yonge. If that is not a big enough deal to avoid such a transfer on Line 4 between NYCC and STC I would argue we should just be refurbing SRT and using that technology as the basis of building out rapid transit in Scarborough. Putting the terminus at Sheppard/Mccowan is basically declaring STC is dead. New STC is going to be at Shep/Mccowan. It's just bizarre.

 

[afransen]

In Scarborough, I can see benefits of either option: main terminus at Sheppard&McCowan vs main terminus at STC. Riders coming from all places north of the 401 would prefer Sheppard&McCowan, then their buses will not be stuck on the 401 bridges / underpasses. And, people riding along Sheppard from the east of McCowan won't need to duck south of the 401 in order to continue their westward trip.

Add some dedicated bus lanes?

So, both options have their pros and cons, and neither is horribly bad. Overall, I would be leaning towards Sheppard&McCowan. Merely because once the SSE terminus is placed there, it will be easier to keep the Sheppard Line under/on/above Sheppard rather than have it duck south of the 401.

Line 4 will never be extended east of McCowan on Sheppard. Ellesmere is the corridor that is going to be intensified with a BRT. If Line 4 terminated at STC, it could eventually be extended down Ellesmere as demand grows. Sheppard east of McCowan is a dead end and won't warrant more than bus service (though it may get LRT for political reasons).

 

[KhalilHeron]

Every single person going between NYCC and STC will need to transfer. Transfer City. We're spending $5B to eliminate the evil 'linear transfer' between STC and Bloor Yonge. If that is not a big enough deal to avoid such a transfer on Line 4 between NYCC and STC I would argue we should just be refurbing SRT and using that technology as the basis of building out rapid transit in Scarborough. Putting the terminus at Sheppard/Mccowan is basically declaring STC is dead. New STC is going to be at Shep/Mccowan. It's just bizarre.

How many people travel between NYCC and STC, vs Somewhere closer to downtown and STC. Quite a bit less. Most bus transfers from STC now are north and east. I definitely understand your argument but I feel the pros of terminating line 4 at Sheppard and McCowan vs STC outway the cons. Terminating at Mccowan allows for easier future extensions, offers more incentive for new development to spread out from STC as soon they'll be no land left to build on (new areas that can be better designed for pedestrians from the get-go) provides easier, quicker access for people north of the 401 (people living south of it will already have more options like line 2), keeping it under Sheppard would probably be cheaper because it could allow for more cut and cover in places. Cons could include an added transfer between NYCC and STC, and serving less density at completion. instead of just piling transit in preexisting dense areas it's not a bad idea to use transit to spur development every once and a while (if done well... not bessarion)

 

[KhalilHeron]

Add some dedicated bus lanes?

Line 4 will never be extended east of McCowan on Sheppard. Ellesmere is the corridor that is going to be intensified with a BRT. If Line 4 terminated at STC, it could eventually be extended down Ellesmere as demand grows. Sheppard east of McCowan is a dead end and won't warrant more than bus service (though it may get LRT for political reasons).

and line 2 was never gonna be extended past Kennedy. Malvern is a perfect destination for line 4 to one day be extended too, past that I agree it should swing down to hit utsc but between Morningside and stc Ellesmere is pretty desolate with little room for development due to the highland creek. Sheppard has a lot more density along that stretch

 

[EnviroTO]

Yep. So much more logical to have the major transit interchange (BD+Line 4+LRT) in Scarborough be here:

And not here:

We will never look back on this decision and wonder what the hell we were thinking. /s

Of course. It is a much more of a destination. Using subway for the Sheppard line rather than LRT was the smart decision, but the route that took it to Scarborough Centre was the crazy talk part. Who wants to go to the office buildings, mall, and dense residential? Canadian Tire's gas bar and East Court Ford is where people who take transit would go most.

 

[Rainforest]

Line 4 will never be extended east of McCowan on Sheppard. Ellesmere is the corridor that is going to be intensified with a BRT. If Line 4 terminated at STC, it could eventually be extended down Ellesmere as demand grows. Sheppard east of McCowan is a dead end and won't warrant more than bus service (though it may get LRT for political reasons).

Sheppard east of McCowan may get LRT that runs to Malvern Centre. More for the sake of Malvern service than for Sheppard itself.

It is true that connecting to the Ellesmere corridor will be easier with the Sheppard line's diversion to STC. But in case the Sheppard line doesn't go there, it is still possible to extend the Ellesmere transit line past STC and have it connect to Sheppard, via Brimley or Midland.

If the Sheppard line gets built to Sheppard&McCowan, and later the demand along Ellesmere really soars, then it will even be possible to swing the Sheppard line diagonally (Sheppard&McCowan - Centennial - the Hospital - UTSC) and turn it into a Sheppard - Ellesmere line.

 

[north-of-anything]

I felt like going for something a little more long-term (and probably a little more "fantasy" as well).

The west section of this route begins at Jane, to interchange with future rapid transit on Jane and an extension of the 512 St Clair. It follows Dundas eastwards to Bloor GO/Dundas West, and then follows College Street to Yonge. East of Yonge, the route continues under Carlton Street up to Riverdale Park, where it swings northwards to align with the current DVP on-ramp. The line interchanges with Line 2 at Broadview Station, heading northeast.

North of Danforth Avenue, the line makes a stop at Mortimer before turning onto Cosburn. The line interchanges with the Ontario Line and proceeds through East York up to beyond Coxwell, swinging to the north to the intersection of O'Connor and St. Clair, following the latter eastwards past Line 2 again at Warden, reaching its eastern terminus at Scarborough GO.

I chose College Street for the downtown section of the route because it does not intrude as much on the catchment areas of Line 2 and the Ontario Line as other routes, and more value can be extracted from future development along this route than along the already-very-intensified King.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I like all the transfers on this. though I feel like something father south downtown would be more useful if it didn't already exist in this timeline

 

[Steve X]

I always thought of a tunnel under College to relief GO trains instead. Something like our own version of the London Crossrail with a tunnel under the core.