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Transit Fantasy Maps

JasonParis

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Bureaucromancer

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I'm thinking that the RT 2023 shutdown announcement just might make the time right to introduce what I'm I've come to favor for Sheppard.

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Suffice to say that even with the Scarborough Extension abandoning the RT right of way at STC annoys me quite a lot. At the same time, extending the Ontario Line extension looks like a good chance for a peace offering to Scarborough regarding the RT down time, as well as that perception that the OL is for downtown.

The economic case for this is pretty dependent on being able to avoid tunneling on the CP ROW, but I don't think elevated construction really should be a problem there. If it genuinely becomes one, there is always Don Mills.

Edit: I put in the Sheppard extension of BD since as much as I might wish to be rid of it, it's probably not worth more delay at this point.
 

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afransen

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I think it would be a missed opportunity not to have Line 4 intersect with Agincourt GO. If Sheppard actually becomes our real crosstown line at some point, it should enable transfers from most of the radial lines.
 
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slapped_chicken

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I think it would be a missed opportunity not to have Line 4 intersection Agincourt GO. If Sheppard actually becomes our real crosstown line at some point, it should enable transfers from most of the radial lines.

true, there is also a lot better ridership potential by running Line 4 along Sheppard in this segment as opposed to the 401. At least, west of Agincourt; anything east of that station is just industrial wasteland for the most part :S

For this map, the Line 2 extension to Sheppard/McCowan is useless, pretty much. But, to me that's a good thing, that station isn't really needed at all and the only reason it likely exists in today's plans is to allow an interchange with Line 4. But, I think it's far better to have a subway interchange at STC rather than some obscure intersection to the north of it. I like the use of the east-west SRT corridor for rapid transit, it's something I think about a lot, although this is the first time I've seen it for an OL extension, which is pretty cool.
 

afransen

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Seems redundant for OL to extend to STC. I agree Line 4 should hit Agincourt GO and terminate (or pass through STC then further east to UTSC). OL should probably be heading up toward Finch/Steeles. Upgraded bus service for Malvern? Subway doesn't seem necessary.
 

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My problem with Agincourt isn't that it's not an obviously desirable connection, but that once you do that you're back to tunneling much of Sheppard, and salvaging the STC ROW becomes more problematic. Assuming an above grade extension of the OL is actually feasible I'm inclined to relocating GO down to William Kitchen Rd, where a deviation into a combined station might even be reasonable:

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As far as taking the Ontario Line toward Finch goes, on the one hand it looks like we're well past mainline compatible equipment being on the table, so running to Richmond Hill Centre isn't a question of actually joining the GO corridor, while following Don Mills is the kind of elevated over road construction we seem to totally reject here..

If our actually acceptable options come down to the list below I see the most benefit in through running:

-tunneling Sheppard and abandoning the STC ROW while not linking the OL (possibly with intent to tunnel OL north one day)
-elevated OL following CP to Scarborough and through running with the Sheppard/RT corridor
-elevated OL joining RH GO north of Lawrence and terminating at Oriole/Leslie while Sheppard does some combination of the two

Frankly I think that one seat Malvern/Downtown is more of a marketing point than important to the network, but one that has a lot of benefit in terms of actually getting funding and support. Combine that with an emphasis on phase 2 being a Pickering extension that seems... as useful as such a project could be... and I think this is the kind of plan that could be a politically viable means to salvage the infrastructure and actually get Sheppard extended.

1612469986297.png
 

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slapped_chicken

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Seems redundant for OL to extend to STC. I agree Line 4 should hit Agincourt GO and terminate (or pass through STC then further east to UTSC). OL should probably be heading up toward Finch/Steeles. Upgraded bus service for Malvern? Subway doesn't seem necessary.

Yea, if I were making a map for this part of the city it would largely be as you described. Having both OL and Line 2 at STC would both provide one-seat rides to downtown (redundant service), as opposed to possibly one 1-seat ride to downtown and one 1-seat ride to STC instead by connecting Line 2 and 4 at STC.
My problem with Agincourt isn't that it's not an obviously desirable connection, but that once you do that you're back to tunneling much of Sheppard, and salvaging the STC ROW becomes more problematic. Assuming an above grade extension of the OL is actually feasible I'm inclined to relocating GO down to William Kitchen Rd, where a deviation into a combined station might even be reasonable:

ooh, a new station at that point could generate a large redevelopment of that big shopping plaza. I'd be reluctant to remove Agincourt though, if RER actually succeeds in being well integrated with the TTC, a station on Sheppard would be an important interchange point (whether Line 4 gets extended there or not, some form of enhanced transit definitely will)
 

north-of-anything

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When it comes to Line 4, I would be more inclined to extend it in both directions, with stops placed like this. I also believe a direct connection for Line 4 to Scarborough Centre is the ideal solution for the line, but I don't think this alignment precludes one way of construction over the other. With the amount of lanes Sheppard has, and the surrounding built form, I think either elevated or cut-and-cover is feasible on either end. Even past Agincourt, there is always the possibility of the line following the old Line 3 alignment but underground, with the former tracks being converted to a linear park. I also have two options for further extensions to the west and east, but it may be more appropriate to just use the planned Durham-Scarborough BRT and enhancing service to Centennial rather than pursue either option. Scarborough Centre could be a feasible terminus in the same vein as Richmond Hill Centre is, considering their similar built forms and distances from Union.
 

Tuck

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People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.
 

afransen

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Shouldn't we be building transit to be most useful, and part of that is reducing the number of transfers required? STC is a mobility hub, with lots of routes terminating there, including future Durham BRT. It makes sense for Sheppard to connect with STC. Otherwise, someone might come off Durham BRT, need to take Line 2 one stop north, and transfer to line 4. Needlessly adding hassle and time to the trip. You should be able to get a one seat ride between NYCC and STC.
 

Rainforest

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People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.

Either option has its pros and cons. If the line swings from Sheppard to south of 401 in the east, it will hit more trip generators (STC, Centennial, UofT Scarborough). That may result in higher total ridership. If the line doesn't swing, then it is easier to plan some trips.

Partly depends on the technology, too. If the Sheppard line is extended as wide-bodies TTC subway, then it will probably stay under Sheppard and terminate at the McCowan intersection, connecting to SSE there. Fancy turns south, east, around the STC etc will be hard to implement.

If it is replaced with something more agile, then a fancier route becomes possible.
 

slapped_chicken

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People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you had Sheppard been an LRT or BRT corridor that might easily proceed beyond McCowan, but some smart person many decades ago decided to choose the highest order, most expensive transit mode to place underneath some northern suburban arterial. So, if this is what we have to work with, we need the best possible route that attracts ridership ;) continuing on Sheppard beyond Agincourt poses little potential compared to south of it.
 

north-of-anything

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Line 4 should hit Scarborough Centre, which allows the remainder of the Sheppard Corridor to be adequately served by BRT, with the route transitioning to ordinary bus service east of Morningside. I also put in an express bus to follow the planned Line 3 extension up to Malvern, hitting the two most important nodes and a transfer to the Sheppard line along the way.

The "UTSC North" corridor could potentially be an extension of the Sheppard East BRT, but at the same time I feel like local service will be enough once Ellesmere BRT and the Crosstown East are factored in.

I do want to try and tackle other subregions in the GTHA when it comes to introducing a variety of different rapid transit modes Maybe I'll do a grand map in the future but idk.
 

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