Transit Fantasy Maps

[slapped_chicken]

Seems redundant for OL to extend to STC. I agree Line 4 should hit Agincourt GO and terminate (or pass through STC then further east to UTSC). OL should probably be heading up toward Finch/Steeles. Upgraded bus service for Malvern? Subway doesn't seem necessary.

Yea, if I were making a map for this part of the city it would largely be as you described. Having both OL and Line 2 at STC would both provide one-seat rides to downtown (redundant service), as opposed to possibly one 1-seat ride to downtown and one 1-seat ride to STC instead by connecting Line 2 and 4 at STC.

My problem with Agincourt isn't that it's not an obviously desirable connection, but that once you do that you're back to tunneling much of Sheppard, and salvaging the STC ROW becomes more problematic. Assuming an above grade extension of the OL is actually feasible I'm inclined to relocating GO down to William Kitchen Rd, where a deviation into a combined station might even be reasonable:

ooh, a new station at that point could generate a large redevelopment of that big shopping plaza. I'd be reluctant to remove Agincourt though, if RER actually succeeds in being well integrated with the TTC, a station on Sheppard would be an important interchange point (whether Line 4 gets extended there or not, some form of enhanced transit definitely will)

 

[north-of-anything]

When it comes to Line 4, I would be more inclined to extend it in both directions, with stops placed like this. I also believe a direct connection for Line 4 to Scarborough Centre is the ideal solution for the line, but I don't think this alignment precludes one way of construction over the other. With the amount of lanes Sheppard has, and the surrounding built form, I think either elevated or cut-and-cover is feasible on either end. Even past Agincourt, there is always the possibility of the line following the old Line 3 alignment but underground, with the former tracks being converted to a linear park. I also have two options for further extensions to the west and east, but it may be more appropriate to just use the planned Durham-Scarborough BRT and enhancing service to Centennial rather than pursue either option. Scarborough Centre could be a feasible terminus in the same vein as Richmond Hill Centre is, considering their similar built forms and distances from Union.

 

[Tuck]

People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.

 

[afransen]

Shouldn't we be building transit to be most useful, and part of that is reducing the number of transfers required? STC is a mobility hub, with lots of routes terminating there, including future Durham BRT. It makes sense for Sheppard to connect with STC. Otherwise, someone might come off Durham BRT, need to take Line 2 one stop north, and transfer to line 4. Needlessly adding hassle and time to the trip. You should be able to get a one seat ride between NYCC and STC.

 

[Rainforest]

People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.

Either option has its pros and cons. If the line swings from Sheppard to south of 401 in the east, it will hit more trip generators (STC, Centennial, UofT Scarborough). That may result in higher total ridership. If the line doesn't swing, then it is easier to plan some trips.

Partly depends on the technology, too. If the Sheppard line is extended as wide-bodies TTC subway, then it will probably stay under Sheppard and terminate at the McCowan intersection, connecting to SSE there. Fancy turns south, east, around the STC etc will be hard to implement.

If it is replaced with something more agile, then a fancier route becomes possible.

 

[slapped_chicken]

People are going to disagree with me on this, but IMO, Sheppard should stay on Sheppard. One of the nice things about Toronto is our grid based network. I've always preferred keeping things simple and in generally straight lines. I much prefer having Line 2 extended up to Shepard and having a transfer point there, rather than at Scarborough Centre.

Especially that OL extension example above which is just spaghetti.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you had Sheppard been an LRT or BRT corridor that might easily proceed beyond McCowan, but some smart person many decades ago decided to choose the highest order, most expensive transit mode to place underneath some northern suburban arterial. So, if this is what we have to work with, we need the best possible route that attracts ridership continuing on Sheppard beyond Agincourt poses little potential compared to south of it.

 

[north-of-anything]

Line 4 should hit Scarborough Centre, which allows the remainder of the Sheppard Corridor to be adequately served by BRT, with the route transitioning to ordinary bus service east of Morningside. I also put in an express bus to follow the planned Line 3 extension up to Malvern, hitting the two most important nodes and a transfer to the Sheppard line along the way.

The "UTSC North" corridor could potentially be an extension of the Sheppard East BRT, but at the same time I feel like local service will be enough once Ellesmere BRT and the Crosstown East are factored in.

I do want to try and tackle other subregions in the GTHA when it comes to introducing a variety of different rapid transit modes Maybe I'll do a grand map in the future but idk.

 

[M II A II R II K]

 

[tsm1072]

In the true spirit of fantasy, I've been thinking about how useful the midtown line could be for creating strong transfer points and quick travel between them. In this fantasy, CP builds a new yard somewhere and the midtown line is freed up for frequent commuter service.

Midtown Express Line Stations: Long Branch, Kipling (Using the Canpa sub), Stockyards, Dufferin/Dupont, Spadina/Dupont, Summerhill, Leaside, Ellesmere/Warden. North Scarborough (On the southwest border of the CP yard)

Most of these stations would have strong connections and should be rebuilt as efficient hubs:

• Long Branch
  • Lakeshore West GO
    • Platforms should be set up such that LW trains can route to union or midtown
  • Lakeshore West Streetcar
  • TTC and MiWay buses
• Kipling
  • Milton GO
  • TTC Line 2
  • 427 BRT
    • Dedicated BRT running from Kipling to the Airport transit hub. Used by TTC, Miway, and GO
• Stockyards
  • Milton GO
  • The terminus for St.Clair Streetcars
• Dufferin/Dupont
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• Spadina/Dupont
  • TTC Line 1
• Summerhill
  • TTC Line 1
• Leaside
  • This becomes a major station
  • Ontario Line
    • 4 Platforms (2 for through running, 2 for short turns and yard entry)
  • Richmond Hill Go
    • Re-route the line through this station and use the Leaside spur to re-connect to the line
  • Line 5 Central
    • Terminate and turn crosstown here to run metro like service on the underground portion between here and Mount Dennis
  • Line 5 East
    • Terminate and turn the above street running portion of crosstown here
  • VIA HFR
    • Run the via HFR trains down the RH Go line. For incoming trains, this station provides transfers to those not wanting to end up downtown
• Ellesmere/Warden
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• North Scarborough
  • Use the land from CP to create a new station, TTC subway yard for lines 2 and 4, GO midtown yard, and VIA HFR yard
  • TTC Line 2 terminus (extend from Kennedy via STC)
  • TTC Line 4 terminus (extend from Fairview along sheppard)
  • VIA HFR
  • GO Mid-East line
    • Super fantasy line running on the CP tracks from Central Oshawa to Scarborough

The key to success is GO RER providing the ability to run metro-style service with the ability to adjust train lengths for demand.

 

[tsm1072]

Because maps are fun, I decided to map the midtown RER concept. I added some additional lines and extensions to complete the map. The main goal was to assume RER lines would run 5-15 minutes frequencies based on demand, so transferring would always be convenient. I also assumed fare integration would happen for this to work. This line layout should reduce the number of people transferring via downtown when trying to get from travel across the city. I feel this would be achievable by 2060 (Assuming a deal with CP made by 2030 that allows for acquiring their tracks and yard).

Hi-Res:

https://imgur.com/m26UiRb

 

[sacred]

Th

In the true spirit of fantasy, I've been thinking about how useful the midtown line could be for creating strong transfer points and quick travel between them. In this fantasy, CP builds a new yard somewhere and the midtown line is freed up for frequent commuter service.

Midtown Express Line Stations: Long Branch, Kipling (Using the Canpa sub), Stockyards, Dufferin/Dupont, Spadina/Dupont, Summerhill, Leaside, Ellesmere/Warden. North Scarborough (On the southwest border of the CP yard)

Most of these stations would have strong connections and should be rebuilt as efficient hubs:

• Long Branch
  • Lakeshore West GO
    • Platforms should be set up such that LW trains can route to union or midtown
  • Lakeshore West Streetcar
  • TTC and MiWay buses
• Kipling
  • Milton GO
  • TTC Line 2
  • 427 BRT
    • Dedicated BRT running from Kipling to the Airport transit hub. Used by TTC, Miway, and GO
• Stockyards
  • Milton GO
  • The terminus for St.Clair Streetcars
• Dufferin/Dupont
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• Spadina/Dupont
  • TTC Line 1
• Summerhill
  • TTC Line 1
• Leaside
  • This becomes a major station
  • Ontario Line
    • 4 Platforms (2 for through running, 2 for short turns and yard entry)
  • Richmond Hill Go
    • Re-route the line through this station and use the Leaside spur to re-connect to the line
  • Line 5 Central
    • Terminate and turn crosstown here to run metro like service on the underground portion between here and Mount Dennis
  • Line 5 East
    • Terminate and turn the above street running portion of crosstown here
  • VIA HFR
    • Run the via HFR trains down the RH Go line. For incoming trains, this station provides transfers to those not wanting to end up downtown
• Ellesmere/Warden
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• North Scarborough
  • Use the land from CP to create a new station, TTC subway yard for lines 2 and 4, GO midtown yard, and VIA HFR yard
  • TTC Line 2 terminus (extend from Kennedy via STC)
  • TTC Line 4 terminus (extend from Fairview along sheppard)
  • VIA HFR
  • GO Mid-East line
    • Super fantasy line running on the CP tracks from Central Oshawa to Scarborough

The key to success is GO RER providing the ability to run metro-style service with the ability to adjust train lengths for demand.

That's awesome!
I was thinking about something similar the other day. I was thinking yesterday about what it would take to get a GO midtown line going. Phase 1 is VIA making whatever improvement they need to make on the Don Branch and the Belleville Sub, with the future in mind. Phase 2 is the province going ahead and quad tracking the Milton Line. Both of those projects have been somewhat seriously discussed/planned. If those are in place, it would be a no-brainer to invest in quad tracking the midtown corridor.
Talk about fantasy though.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

In the true spirit of fantasy, I've been thinking about how useful the midtown line could be for creating strong transfer points and quick travel between them. In this fantasy, CP builds a new yard somewhere and the midtown line is freed up for frequent commuter service.

Midtown Express Line Stations: Long Branch, Kipling (Using the Canpa sub), Stockyards, Dufferin/Dupont, Spadina/Dupont, Summerhill, Leaside, Ellesmere/Warden. North Scarborough (On the southwest border of the CP yard)

Most of these stations would have strong connections and should be rebuilt as efficient hubs:

• Long Branch
  • Lakeshore West GO
    • Platforms should be set up such that LW trains can route to union or midtown
  • Lakeshore West Streetcar
  • TTC and MiWay buses
• Kipling
  • Milton GO
  • TTC Line 2
  • 427 BRT
    • Dedicated BRT running from Kipling to the Airport transit hub. Used by TTC, Miway, and GO
• Stockyards
  • Milton GO
  • The terminus for St.Clair Streetcars
• Dufferin/Dupont
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• Spadina/Dupont
  • TTC Line 1
• Summerhill
  • TTC Line 1
• Leaside
  • This becomes a major station
  • Ontario Line
    • 4 Platforms (2 for through running, 2 for short turns and yard entry)
  • Richmond Hill Go
    • Re-route the line through this station and use the Leaside spur to re-connect to the line
  • Line 5 Central
    • Terminate and turn crosstown here to run metro like service on the underground portion between here and Mount Dennis
  • Line 5 East
    • Terminate and turn the above street running portion of crosstown here
  • VIA HFR
    • Run the via HFR trains down the RH Go line. For incoming trains, this station provides transfers to those not wanting to end up downtown
• Ellesmere/Warden
  • Just a filler station with Bus connections
• North Scarborough
  • Use the land from CP to create a new station, TTC subway yard for lines 2 and 4, GO midtown yard, and VIA HFR yard
  • TTC Line 2 terminus (extend from Kennedy via STC)
  • TTC Line 4 terminus (extend from Fairview along sheppard)
  • VIA HFR
  • GO Mid-East line
    • Super fantasy line running on the CP tracks from Central Oshawa to Scarborough

The key to success is GO RER providing the ability to run metro-style service with the ability to adjust train lengths for demand.

I'm not sure I see the benefit to having the midtown line head south to Long Branch, there are benefits to having Milton trains alternate to Union and North Toronto stations (or have the RER service terminate at Kipling with commuter rail coming in from Milton), especially considering that Lakeshore will continue to be the busiest line in the system and adding Long Branch as a terminus for a midtown line could cause delays on the Lakeshore line. Clearly Kipling is, should be, and will be the major intermodal transit hub of the region, but I can't see someone at Long Branch or coming in on the Lakeshore W line wanting to use/transfer to the midtown line. To take the Bloor subway? To get to destinations along the midtown line? No arguably those destinations along the midtown corridor are close enough to Lakeshore line that they are a quick transfer to local transit away (and if there isn't this kind of local transit connection, there should be), as the midtown line is about 4km from the lakeshore line at most in the West.

 

[tsm1072]

I'm not sure I see the benefit to having the midtown line head south to Long Branch, there are benefits to having Milton trains alternate to Union and North Toronto stations (or have the RER service terminate at Kipling with commuter rail coming in from Milton), especially considering that Lakeshore will continue to be the busiest line in the system and adding Long Branch as a terminus for a midtown line could cause delays on the Lakeshore line. Clearly Kipling is, should be, and will be the major intermodal transit hub of the region, but I can't see someone at Long Branch or coming in on the Lakeshore W line wanting to use/transfer to the midtown line. To take the Bloor subway? To get to destinations along the midtown line? No arguably those destinations along the midtown corridor are close enough to Lakeshore line that they are a quick transfer to local transit away (and if there isn't this kind of local transit connection, there should be), as the midtown line is about 4km from the lakeshore line at most in the West.

My thought is southwest Etobicoke and southeast Mississauga need a good North-South link. The rail-corridor is a convenient way to provide that, but a BRT up Brown's Line-427 or Kipling could also provide that. I'm not sure if you would get many connections from the LW line, but it should capture anyone heading to destinations NW of Spadina Station. Providing alternate routes that don't require transferring via downtown is good for system capacity in the long run. If you terminated the midtown line there, you would build extra tracks and platforms to not interfere with LW frequency. The other connection you get at Long Branch is the planned lakeshore BRT running from Long Branch to Port Credit.

If you have modern signalling and infrastructure, Metrolinx could definitely run some alternate routes to reduce transfers (eg. Milton to North Toronto, Scarborough to Oakville). It would be a bit like Thameslink through London.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

My thought is southwest Etobicoke and southeast Mississauga need a good North-South link. The rail-corridor is a convenient way to provide that, but a BRT up Brown's Line-427 or Kipling could also provide that. I'm not sure if you would get many connections from the LW line, but it should capture anyone heading to destinations NW of Spadina Station. Providing alternate routes that don't require transferring via downtown is good for system capacity in the long run. If you terminated the midtown line there, you would build extra tracks and platforms to not interfere with LW frequency. The other connection you get at Long Branch is the planned lakeshore BRT running from Long Branch to Port Credit.

If you have modern signalling and infrastructure, Metrolinx could definitely run some alternate routes to reduce transfers (eg. Milton to North Toronto, Scarborough to Oakville). It would be a bit like Thameslink through London.

That link would hardly be a N-S link when it only serves the southern half (third?) of the region... A Kipling or Islington BRT or LRT would do this though, but that's probably 30+ years down the road.

Wrt to destinations NW of Spadina, I think connecting to the subway at Union would be just as quick as connecting to the midtown line and has the benefit of being a counter peak flow thus using free capacity on the subway. And Keele, Roncy, Dufferin, and Bathurst can also provide those connections to points North (provided Go builds infil stations in places such as Parkdale, and Cityplace).

 

[afransen]

Kipling is kind of narrow for BRT (assuming people would insist on two general purpose lanes per direction).