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Transit Fantasy Maps

In regards to the Etobicoke RT, by the time the SRT is done and settling down and even if it worked well, Ontario was about to enter into a recession. Nothing would have been built in the early 90s even if the SRT was a success and built for CLRVs. Then they'll have to solve the hydro corridor sharing problem. They can't just built a 3 way junction over a transformer station at 401/27. I could see cost stacking up to avoid all the equipment. Ridership from the Pearson to Kipling section would be very low compared to the SRT. They'll need the Rexdale/Finch leg to boost that. I could imagine all the complains residents will file from all the noise with railway crossing bells if built at-grade. Probably decent transit priority traffic lights would solve the problem.

Too bad once the recession is over, Etobicoke is not longer a city of its own with a voice to speak for the project.
 
I dunno. A common refrain is that ICTS was garbagio, and we totally should've built the original awesome LRT. But seems people gloss over the glaring flaw with the TTC's LRT plans. And that's the vehicle: low-platform, high-floor CLRVs. The entire line, whether SRT or ERT, would've been inaccessible to anyone with a wheelchair, and cumbersome to those with strollers or crutches etc. This is obviously remedied by a switch to low-floor vehicles. But that likely would've been three decades post-build, as it was with the legacy system.

So imo if RT was a flop for Scarborough, it still should've been built for Etobicoke regardless. Evens things out politically, and incentivizes further investment to make it less of a flop.

Everyone here thinks the problem with the Scarborough RT was the technology, while meanwhile Vancouver uses the same technology and its considered to be one of the best public transit systems in North America for a city of its size.

The issue with the SRT was never the ICTS technology, it was all of the meddling with it (union requiring drivers on board, etc) and the complete lack of funding to keep the system updated and running smoothly.
 
Agree with ICTS not being a failure per se. LIM wasn't necessary, but is also not nearly so crippling as people act like. Frankly, if that was the only issue there is absolutely nothing stopping a conventionally propelled train using the ICTS third + fourth rail power system. Even the cost of grade separation is overblown the SRT would inevitably have received incremental grade separation for the sake of road traffic at Lawrence and Ellesmere. Scarborough Centre station was looking more like what we got than any of the early at grade versions by the time ICTS was chosen. The prospect of less than full grade separation on extensions IS seriously tempting, but as was mentioned, no cost savings on the order of what grade separation can feasibly do was going to get major projects built between 1985 and 2000. I honestly think the best case scenario would be an at grade extension to Centennial, without a highway crossing, being built around the time of the Spadina/Harbourfront projects.

More than anything the SRTs reputation was crippled by a genuinely bad transfer at Kennedy which was never going to be seen as anything other than a forced linear transfer. Given everything that has happened since, I almost fear that a CLRV based SRT would have made it even harder to get popular support for LRT in Toronto. Quite frankly, it wasn't the cost differential of light metro vs LRT that caused the zeitgeist to shift away from above grade construction in hydro and rail rights of way, Vancouver and the SRT itself being good examples of the actual cost difference being marginal. Frankly, UTDC and the Government of Ontario proper had decent arguments for the advantages of high floors and automation.

Criticizing ICTS does nothing to further the cause of reexaming those corridors now. Though I grant that the image of genuinely minimalist surface private right of way streetcar routes in suburban Toronto is hugely attractive, the SRT was never going to be that, it was always too much a subway extension; the Etobicoke RT probably WAS the best chance for such a thing, and it's death wasn't truly caused by ICTS or light metro, but the conditions that led to no meaningful construction happening from the SRTs opening until the Sheppard line was built.

Quite frankly, if I wanted to put the blame for the lack suburban low cost LRT in Toronto in a single place it likely IS UTDC, but no DIRECTLY the development of a light metro system. Had GO-ALRT been a genuinely common technology with UTDCs urban medium capacity system (be that a light metro, or something streetcar derived) I think there would have been a much better chance of things coming together sensibly. The real problem was, in other words, that the moment GO-ALRT became a bespoke system incompatible with any of the heavy rail, metro, streetcar OR light metro networks ANY coherence in suburban network planning fell apart.

To play the speculative history game a bit, consider how things might have played out if, without changing anything else, GO-ALRT were a properly common technology with the SRT. It's not hard to argue that this would have speeded construction of the Picering - Whitby section that opened in 1988, and once that line is in place and compatible, closing the gap via UTSC and Centennial is exactly the kind of project that could have gained wider support than anything else in the era. Similarly, even the early historical Sheppard Subway studies speak to the desirability of GO-ALRT compatibility; It would be hard to shift Lastman's support to a Finch corridor route in my view, but building for SRT compatibility looks a lot more attractive with the start of ALRT, the SRT beginning to form a network rather than being an overgrown peoplemover and, one hopes, a better sense from the public that elevated construction isn't the end of the ******* world. If nothing else I have to think that any government that still had the least bit of official intent to build the ALRT northern line would fund the Sheppard line as something incompatible with an existing ALRT eastern project. In short, it's not that a light metro project was a bad idea for Toronto, it's that we had three competing visions of it (ICTS, ALRT and conventional but high end LRT) which managed to kill each other.
 
It also has the distinction of being a pointless linear transfer that’s over capacity.

The thing is, if it was built out into the system it was supposed to be, with a full loop going from Kennedy to Kipling (either via Sheppard or the finch hydro corridor) it wouldnt be seen as such.

The fact that it was basically left to rot after what was supposed to be a phase 1 is what gives this transfer a meaningless feeling.

In reality it was supposed to be a full suburban network.
 
ICTS which is not only successful in Vancouver and the Docklands Light Rail and many East Asian examples know commonly known as Innvovia works great.

Unlike this place where it’s too snowy, fine. Don’t build it here.

But there are plenty of alternative technologies that would work out
 
And frankly it would be efficient to separate the Scarborough wing from Line 2 and have an express like service along the Lakeshore downtown.

Line 2 could terminate at Danforth GO station which would also connect with this theoretical new line.

Transfer ridden Scarborough commuters will still be transfer ridden but wouldn’t have to unnecessarily take up space sitting through every Danforth station only to be greeted by that dreaded Bloor Yonge interchange
 
Minor quibble, but the DLR is NOT Innovia/ART/ICTS, though it (now) uses the same signaling system, but a rather conventional high floor LRT bar it's automation and use of third rail.
 
Not really a fantasy but made this while learning to use inkscape cause I saw people asking for this map earlier on this thread. It's pretty rough since it's my first time using the program but I think it turned out all right. I'd love any feedback though mind you it is still a wip as I'll be adding the Finch West LRT, Scarborough Subway extension, Ontario line, Yonge Subway extension and maybe some new streetcar routes namely waterfront east and west. Some of the station spacing on Eglinton might be weird because I'm anticipating more lines so
🤷
Subway and Streetcar Map 2022 small.png

(also can I just say how ugly a fully accessible line looks on this map like sheppard was tolerable cus it's short but my god visually it's not too easy on the eyes)
 
Not really a fantasy but made this while learning to use inkscape cause I saw people asking for this map earlier on this thread. It's pretty rough since it's my first time using the program but I think it turned out all right. I'd love any feedback though mind you it is still a wip as I'll be adding the Finch West LRT, Scarborough Subway extension, Ontario line, Yonge Subway extension and maybe some new streetcar routes namely waterfront east and west. Some of the station spacing on Eglinton might be weird because I'm anticipating more lines so
🤷
View attachment 294148
(also can I just say how ugly a fully accessible line looks on this map like sheppard was tolerable cus it's short but my god visually it's not too easy on the eyes)
I would think once all stations in the system are accessible they could probably remove all the accessible icons and instead replace it with a disclaimer in the legend stating all stations are accessible.
 
I would think once all stations in the system are accessible they could probably remove all the accessible icons and instead replace it with a disclaimer in the legend stating all stations are accessible.

I think before that you will see instead a symbol showing that a station is not accessible.

It will be a long time until some stations are accessible, like Rosedale.
 
Not really a fantasy but made this while learning to use inkscape cause I saw people asking for this map earlier on this thread. It's pretty rough since it's my first time using the program but I think it turned out all right. I'd love any feedback though mind you it is still a wip as I'll be adding the Finch West LRT, Scarborough Subway extension, Ontario line, Yonge Subway extension and maybe some new streetcar routes namely waterfront east and west. Some of the station spacing on Eglinton might be weird because I'm anticipating more lines so
🤷
View attachment 294148
(also can I just say how ugly a fully accessible line looks on this map like sheppard was tolerable cus it's short but my god visually it's not too easy on the eyes)

This should be a reality map right now, but I digress.
 

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