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Transit Fantasy Maps

Ritachi

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This is gorgeous! But just an idea, why not through-run some of the lines instead of terminating them at Union/Summerhill and forcing a transfer? That seems to be the direction most commuter rail systems go when they turn into a regional metro.

Another suggestion: "Réseau du Trains de Banlieue" isn't exactly correct, since I'm assuming that your map shows that our commuter rail network has been superseded by a bidirectional all-day service (and it should be de Trains instead of du Trains.) "Plan du Réseau de Trains", "Réseau Ferroviaire Régional" or "Réseau Express Regional" (if you want to copy Paris) would be more appropriate.

Sorry, just nitpicking.

Overall it looks amazing.

I noticed the mistake in my French when I did an exo (Montreal) map, just didn't correct the mistake here. I still think trains de banlieue applies here because it is still suburban rail, just more in the style of Paris' RER or Melbourne/Sydney Trains rather than strictly commuter rail. (Though RFR doesn't seem too bad)

Also I would have made the lines run through Union & Summerhill on the map/diagram if I was able to name them something other than "Line 1" or "Line A" (etc). In practice most trains would run through these main stations but with a slightly longer wait/dwell time.

Also I don't mind the nitpicking, usually nitpicking helps with marginal improvements which are always good. (I also nitpicked a map above myself)
 

Undead

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Here's the GO RER map I've made that is a companion map to my TTC map above (I've altered the TTC map a slight bit but it's mostly accurate; I'll post the updated TTC map here as well just for easier reference)

Great maps, thank you. I'm curious - why did you route RH GO away from Union?
 

Ritachi

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Great maps, thank you. I'm curious - why did you route RH GO away from Union?
The current alignment for RH Go goes through the Don River floodplain, which will in the future likely flood more frequently than it does now, GO trains have gotten stuck/cancelled/flooded in major rainstorms and thunderstorms.
 

blacksquirrels

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The 2nd map is really great.
Here's the GO RER map I've made that is a companion map to my TTC map above (I've altered the TTC map a slight bit but it's mostly accurate; I'll post the updated TTC map here as well just for easier reference)

TTC Subway/LRT Map, showing GO RER lines in grey.View attachment 275252
Full Sized Image

GO RER map, this map doesn't show GO bus services, or connections to rapid transit (unfortunately)
View attachment 275251
Full Sized Image

The 2nd map is really great. Nice work!

You should outline the service level each line/branch would have though. It would be much easier to understand your vision/plan. If every branch had 6 trains per hour or more and passengers could transfer to the TTC for free then this could replace most if not all planned extensions in my opinion. It would be better than anything ever proposed by any level of government, Metrolinx or the TTC.
 

t54zhao

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Hmmm, I wonder how running trains to Summerview would work. The ROW doesn't really have room for an additional set of double tracks unless CP allowed Metrolinx to build a viaduct on top of the existing tracks similar to the Davenport grade separation project.

This assuming that CP wouldn't grant use of that ROW to Metrolinx which they haven't done so far.
 
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Ritachi

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This kind of network would be impossible politically. Expropriating both CN and CP's freight mainlines would be impossible unless the government essentially built entirely new mainlines for both companies (even that is questionable). The service levels on these lines would be similar to the differences of headways on the current TTC lines, it wouldn't matter to show how often trains run because they run often enough that you wouldn't need to base your schedule around the train, you could just show up at a station and wait a few minutes. The premise for both the TTC and GO map is where Toronto is built very much like a european-east asian hybrid city (with a population and density that matches). I chose to increase the density of the Toronto CMA by 140% (arbitrary number, could have been anything from 100% to 150%)
 

JSF-1

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So I made another map, this time for Ottawa. I think the Ottawa region would be wonderfully served by an Interurban style network using "Tram-Trains"; which is great since the Citadis line of LRV's are set up for this. Obviously this would require either new trackage built or getting CP and CN on board (fat chance of that happening), but this is the fantasy thread so that doesn't matter here. While the map does leave out stations currently in existence on the Confederation line, you can say they are there and nothing really changes.

OttawaCommuter.png
 

blacksquirrels

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This kind of network would be impossible politically. Expropriating both CN and CP's freight mainlines would be impossible unless the government essentially built entirely new mainlines for both companies (even that is questionable). The service levels on these lines would be similar to the differences of headways on the current TTC lines, it wouldn't matter to show how often trains run because they run often enough that you wouldn't need to base your schedule around the train, you could just show up at a station and wait a few minutes. The premise for both the TTC and GO map is where Toronto is built very much like a european-east asian hybrid city (with a population and density that matches). I chose to increase the density of the Toronto CMA by 140% (arbitrary number, could have been anything from 100% to 150%)

Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?
 

ARG1

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So I made another map, this time for Ottawa. I think the Ottawa region would be wonderfully served by an Interurban style network using "Tram-Trains"; which is great since the Citadis line of LRV's are set up for this. Obviously this would require either new trackage built or getting CP and CN on board (fat chance of that happening), but this is the fantasy thread so that doesn't matter here. While the map does leave out stations currently in existence on the Confederation line, you can say they are there and nothing really changes.

View attachment 275556
Stop at Carling and Mooney's Bay but not Carleton? What's the decision in choosing where to have stops?
 

t54zhao

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Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?
Not for the midtown corridor. There are too many buildings along the way. I thought about building a dedicated passenger viaduct, but that has its own problems and would be incredibly expensive to start
 

blacksquirrels

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Not for the midtown corridor. There are too many buildings along the way. I thought about building a dedicated passenger viaduct, but that has its own problems and would be incredibly expensive to start

What if the missing link was built? Would it become a viable corridor to use then?
 

Ritachi

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Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?

You could theoretically build a viaduct above the CP mainline but that introduces pricy engineering costs.

- Re-engineering or rebuilding bridges to handle increased load (There are so many bridges along this route it's insane)
- Increased station cost & area required for stations
- Costs as much as a brand new rapid transit line
- Expropriation along the sides of the corridor impossible in places (particularly around Summerhill and the Rosedale neighbourhood - requiring demolishing multi unit residential buildings, and encroaching on wealthy landowners' properties)

It would be possible (albeit at quite a hefty cost) to reroute the CP mainline to be right next to the CN freight mainline (I am unaware if any greenbelt restrictions would apply and if so; whether or not they can be ammended) but you couldn't do both midtown and the northern Toronto corridors.

I am working on a much more realistic system with details such as preliminary station structure location above/below ground. I'll also be doing precise route alignment and such. I won't be able to acess utility data however (too expensive), and elevations are difficult to obtain for existing stations.
 

t54zhao

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You could theoretically build a viaduct above the CP mainline but that introduces pricy engineering costs.

- Re-engineering or rebuilding bridges to handle increased load (There are so many bridges along this route it's insane)
- Increased station cost & area required for stations
- Costs as much as a brand new rapid transit line
- Expropriation along the sides of the corridor impossible in places (particularly around Summerhill and the Rosedale neighbourhood - requiring demolishing multi unit residential buildings, and encroaching on wealthy landowners' properties)

It would be possible (albeit at quite a hefty cost) to reroute the CP mainline to be right next to the CN freight mainline (I am unaware if any greenbelt restrictions would apply and if so; whether or not they can be ammended) but you couldn't do both midtown and the northern Toronto corridors.

I am working on a much more realistic system with details such as preliminary station structure location above/below ground. I'll also be doing precise route alignment and such. I won't be able to acess utility data however (too expensive), and elevations are difficult to obtain for existing stations.
I think a viaduct is more feasible than you're making it out to be here.

Expropriation is largely avoided if the viaduct runs directly above the existing mainline. The width of the rail corridor is wide enough to allow for pillars on both sides of the track.

Re-engineering bridges is also unnecessary because you'd be building new bridges to the side of existing bridges for the viaduct.

A four track viaduct would be Toronto's equivalent of London's Crosstown system. Past the Leaside spur, where I assume that the need for a 4 track viaduct on top of the mainline ends, double track can be laid along side the CP mainline all the way to Durham region.

If relocating Agincourt GO is possible, then an intersection with the Markham GO line is possible there.

It may be possible to construct an intersection station with the Barrie GO at the Davenport junction. Viaduct would have to be 20+ m high here.

It may be desirable to build an intersection station at the west Diamond junction too.

Milton line stop would be curved (is that allowed) and at grade, Kitchener line station would be below grade and viaduct station would be above grade.

It would still be incredibly difficult and expensive though. Doing the 50 or so bridge/tunnel widenings to get the CP mainline running alongside and totally independently of the CN mainline might be easier.
 
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t54zhao

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12 KM of viaduct from the West Toronto Junction to the Leaside Spur.

At $500M per km thatd be 6Bn dollars, not including the stations.

15B including expropriations and stations and aboveground powerline relocations.
  • West Toronto Junction Interchange with Union bound Milton and Kitchener Lines.
  • Davenport Interchange with Barrie line
  • Dupont Station
  • Summerhill
  • Thorncliff Park (maybe)
  • Leslie Eglinton Crosstown Interchange

This viaduct wouldn't even bring up frequency on the Milton GO line because that would still be restricted by CP. Unless the viaduct was extended all the way to Lisgar and or the entire section to Lisgar were to be double tracked. Which is another problem because CP won't budge.

Total cost of trying to bring all-day 2 way service to the Milton Line and building a midtown go viaduct would exceed $40Bn.


For the 407 bypass and associated infrastructure, most of these are bridge widenings or building tunnels under existing bridges. Finding space for 6 tracks is tricky. (2 CN, 2 CP, 2 passenger)

Heres a list of all the different grade separations/ bridge widenings needed from west to east

  1. 5th Line
  2. 6th Line
  3. Trafalgar
  4. Hwy 407 and 9th Line
  5. Hwy 401 and Winston Churchill and Meadowvale
  6. Meadowvale/ Heritage Rd
  7. Mississauga Rd
  8. Financial Dr
  9. Credit River and OBRY Owen Sound
  10. Mavis
  11. McLaughlin
  12. Hurontario
  13. Kennedy Rd and Hwy 410
  14. Etobicoke Creek and Tomken Rd
  15. Dixie Rd
  16. Bramlea Rd. and CN Halton and GO Kitchener
  17. Tobram Rd
End of Missing Link, beginning of new CP mainline alongside CN mainline
  1. Airport Rd
  2. CN Brampton
  3. Goreway Rd
  4. Finch Ave and Claireville Reservoir and Hwy 427 and Albion Rd.
  5. Hwy 27
  6. Steeles and Martingrove
  7. Humber River and CP MacTier and Islington
  8. Pine Valley Dr
  9. Weston Rd
  10. Hwy 400
  11. Jane St
  12. CN MacMillan and GO Barrie
  13. Dufferin St.
  14. New Westminster Dr
  15. Bathurst St
  16. Hilda Ave
  17. Yonge St.
  18. Henderson Ave.
  19. East Don River and Bayview Ave.
  20. GO Richmond Hill/CN Bala
  21. John St.
  22. Leslie St.
  23. Hwy 404
  24. Woodbine Ave.
  25. Rodick Rd.
  26. Warden Ave.
  27. Birchmont Rd.
  28. GO Markham
  29. Kennedy Rd
  30. Mccowan Rd.
  31. Markham Rd and 14th Ave.
  32. Rouge River
  33. 9th Line and CP Havelock.

Theres about 50 grade separations total crossing a total of 65 roads, other rail lines and rivers. Thinking about that, and the additional cost of building stations along the old CP North Toronto Subdivision, the two costs might be similar.
 
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