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Transit Fantasy Maps

doady

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York Region spends $137 million annually to subsidize YRT operations. Nassau County spends 1.9 million annually to subsidize NICE operations. $137 million vs. 1.9 million.

York Region and Mississauga recently spent hundreds of millions on a busway and a subway to Toronto. GO also gives a major discount to GO Train riders transferring to/from local buses. To suggest that the situation in NYC area is comparable to the GTA is just ridiculous.

The difference in funding is reflected in the difference in ridership: Mississauga's MiWay by itself has higher ridership than NICE and Westchester County's Bee Line Bus combined. That is 3 times the ridership per capita. Even before you add in Brampton Transit, YRT and DRT, there is already no comparison. It's just a completely different attitude towards bus riders down there.
 

nfitz

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York Region is atrocious for this. Fares start at $4ish and service is something like once, or at best, twice an hour bus service on most non-VIVA routes.
What about Halton Hills ... fares start at ... oh wait there's no bus service. I've been told it's because they are afraid that people from Brampton might come to Halton Hills.
 

north-of-anything

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The cynicism in response to a single fantasy map here is incredible. 15 minute service on VIVA is not the end of the world - it's sufficient for the routes they serve. I'm not sure where this attitude of "5 minute waits or bust" is coming from, because in the suburbs it's simply not cost efficient to run buses through Aurora and Woodbridge at Line 1 frequencies yet. I'm definitely in agreement with Doady here; it's disingenuous to compare Toronto to New York City in this respect.

I was really hoping that the map would spur discussion of what such a map in Toronto would look like, but I guess I'm in the minority on this one.
 

doady

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The cynicism in response to a single fantasy map here is incredible. 15 minute service on VIVA is not the end of the world - it's sufficient for the routes they serve. I'm not sure where this attitude of "5 minute waits or bust" is coming from, because in the suburbs it's simply not cost efficient to run buses through Aurora and Woodbridge at Line 1 frequencies yet. I'm definitely in agreement with Doady here; it's disingenuous to compare Toronto to New York City in this respect.

I was really hoping that the map would spur discussion of what such a map in Toronto would look like, but I guess I'm in the minority on this one.
I was cynical too, sorry about that. I couldn't help but be reminded how divided transit in that region is. It really is a cool map. When I made my fantasy map for GTA, it was one system for the whole region too. Political division is one of the flaws of GTA transit too.

People should keep in mind Nassau County and Westchester County are more akin to North York and Scarborough. York Region is more akin to Suffolk County. Comparing Scarborough to Nassau, or York to Suffolk, it really is a much higher level of local suburban transit service here, not as much drop off outside of the old city of Toronto compared to New York.

I think it is true, the service in York Region is limited by ridership, not the other way around. They provide similar amount of service as Mississauga (~1.5 million service hours annually) but they have half the ridership of Mississauga. For people to say they are intentionally trying to suppress bus ridership like NYC's suburbs are doing doesn't make sense. What's really suppressing the ridership is again the political boundaries, i.e. the Steeles corridor. Without Steeles, YRT will always be an incomplete system.
 

Hopkins123

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I was cynical too, sorry about that. I couldn't help but be reminded how divided transit in that region is. It really is a cool map. When I made my fantasy map for GTA, it was one system for the whole region too. Political division is one of the flaws of GTA transit too.

People should keep in mind Nassau County and Westchester County are more akin to North York and Scarborough. York Region is more akin to Suffolk County. Comparing Scarborough to Nassau, or York to Suffolk, it really is a much higher level of local suburban transit service here, not as much drop off outside of the old city of Toronto compared to New York.

I think it is true, the service in York Region is limited by ridership, not the other way around. They provide similar amount of service as Mississauga (~1.5 million service hours annually) but they have half the ridership of Mississauga. For people to say they are intentionally trying to suppress bus ridership like NYC's suburbs are doing doesn't make sense. What's really suppressing the ridership is again the political boundaries, i.e. the Steeles corridor. Without Steeles, YRT will always be an incomplete system.
I didn't even realize that the NYC map was just a "fantasy". I'm certain most of those lines already exist.

But to your point, MiWay is leaps and bounds superior to YRT. There's even 24 hours bus service on some major routes now. Nothing south of Teston/Elgin Mills in York Region should be having less than 15 minutes frequency from 6AM to midnight.
 

micheal_can

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York Region spends $137 million annually to subsidize YRT operations. Nassau County spends 1.9 million annually to subsidize NICE operations. $137 million vs. 1.9 million.

York Region and Mississauga recently spent hundreds of millions on a busway and a subway to Toronto. GO also gives a major discount to GO Train riders transferring to/from local buses. To suggest that the situation in NYC area is comparable to the GTA is just ridiculous.

The difference in funding is reflected in the difference in ridership: Mississauga's MiWay by itself has higher ridership than NICE and Westchester County's Bee Line Bus combined. That is 3 times the ridership per capita. Even before you add in Brampton Transit, YRT and DRT, there is already no comparison. It's just a completely different attitude towards bus riders down there.
They may be spending, but they have only recently have been doing that.
 

doady

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I didn't even realize that the NYC map was just a "fantasy". I'm certain most of those lines already exist.

But to your point, MiWay is leaps and bounds superior to YRT. There's even 24 hours bus service on some major routes now. Nothing south of Teston/Elgin Mills in York Region should be having less than 15 minutes frequency from 6AM to midnight.
Mississauga has a few routes with 15 minute or better frequency from 6am all the way to 10pm or 11pm, but not midnight. The new 24 hour service is weekdays only, for the night shift workers, because Mississauga is mostly industrial, and of course it also has the airport. Mississauga is also older and denser than York Region, with hundreds of mid rise and high rise apartment buildings from the 60s and 70s. It has more resemblence to Scarborough or North York. Mississauga is also less affluent than York. It is just a different situation.

York Region already spends the same amount per capita on transit as Mississauga does. York Region Transit operating subsidy is $136 million while Mississauga is $87 million annually. York provides 1.3 million service hours while Mississauga provides 1.6 million. Even though it spends the same amount per capita, York gets only half of the transit service hours per capita as Mississauga. It's the lack of riders that's holding YRT service back, not the lack of spending.
 

doady

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What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:



Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.
 

micheal_can

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What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:



Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.
The problem with that is Toronto and York Region have to play nice together.
 

Rainforest

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What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:



Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.
Centre Street is a problem between Yonge and Bathurst; it is a very narrow "heritage" street with that has one lane in each direction, and plenty of stop signs. Not very suitable for BRT. VIVA has a good reason to use Hwy 7 between Yonge and Bathurst.

Other than that, I agree with your map. Steeles looks great as a VIVA route.
 

Leo_Chan

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What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:



Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.
I agree that Viva Purple (Orange) service along Yonge St and Centre St does make sense, as the (finished) Rapidway on Highway 7 between Bathurst and Yonge is basically a waste of potential development. However, I disagree with removing so many midblock stops, as that reduces the amount for density along the whole corridors. Although, if there were passing lanes for express express service then maybe, but that requires significant widening of the ROW. Do you have any suggestions for the future of the CURRENT Viva system?

The problem with that is Toronto and York Region have to play nice together.
That is true, but YRT/Viva service on Steeles Ave is a planned future unfunded service.
 

Rainforest

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I agree that Viva Purple (Orange) service along Yonge St and Centre St does make sense, as the (finished) Rapidway on Highway 7 between Bathurst and Yonge is basically a waste of potential development.
You can't develop that stretch because of its heritage status.

They actually got this bit right. The Rapidway uses Hwy 7 between Yonge and Bathurst since no better path exists, then shifts to Bathurst, and then to Centre between Bathurst and Dufferin. Those sections of both Bathurst and Centre are wide enough to host BRT lanes, and can be developed.
 

Woodbridge_Heights

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The trouble is that VIVA soaked up much of the funding for the system and the basic network has been facing cuts and service reductions for the past decade.
 

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