Transit Fantasy Maps

[north-of-anything]

The cynicism in response to a single fantasy map here is incredible. 15 minute service on VIVA is not the end of the world - it's sufficient for the routes they serve. I'm not sure where this attitude of "5 minute waits or bust" is coming from, because in the suburbs it's simply not cost efficient to run buses through Aurora and Woodbridge at Line 1 frequencies yet. I'm definitely in agreement with Doady here; it's disingenuous to compare Toronto to New York City in this respect.

I was really hoping that the map would spur discussion of what such a map in Toronto would look like, but I guess I'm in the minority on this one.

 

[doady]

The cynicism in response to a single fantasy map here is incredible. 15 minute service on VIVA is not the end of the world - it's sufficient for the routes they serve. I'm not sure where this attitude of "5 minute waits or bust" is coming from, because in the suburbs it's simply not cost efficient to run buses through Aurora and Woodbridge at Line 1 frequencies yet. I'm definitely in agreement with Doady here; it's disingenuous to compare Toronto to New York City in this respect.

I was really hoping that the map would spur discussion of what such a map in Toronto would look like, but I guess I'm in the minority on this one.

I was cynical too, sorry about that. I couldn't help but be reminded how divided transit in that region is. It really is a cool map. When I made my fantasy map for GTA, it was one system for the whole region too. Political division is one of the flaws of GTA transit too.

People should keep in mind Nassau County and Westchester County are more akin to North York and Scarborough. York Region is more akin to Suffolk County. Comparing Scarborough to Nassau, or York to Suffolk, it really is a much higher level of local suburban transit service here, not as much drop off outside of the old city of Toronto compared to New York.

I think it is true, the service in York Region is limited by ridership, not the other way around. They provide similar amount of service as Mississauga (~1.5 million service hours annually) but they have half the ridership of Mississauga. For people to say they are intentionally trying to suppress bus ridership like NYC's suburbs are doing doesn't make sense. What's really suppressing the ridership is again the political boundaries, i.e. the Steeles corridor. Without Steeles, YRT will always be an incomplete system.

 

[Hopkins123]

I was cynical too, sorry about that. I couldn't help but be reminded how divided transit in that region is. It really is a cool map. When I made my fantasy map for GTA, it was one system for the whole region too. Political division is one of the flaws of GTA transit too.

People should keep in mind Nassau County and Westchester County are more akin to North York and Scarborough. York Region is more akin to Suffolk County. Comparing Scarborough to Nassau, or York to Suffolk, it really is a much higher level of local suburban transit service here, not as much drop off outside of the old city of Toronto compared to New York.

I think it is true, the service in York Region is limited by ridership, not the other way around. They provide similar amount of service as Mississauga (~1.5 million service hours annually) but they have half the ridership of Mississauga. For people to say they are intentionally trying to suppress bus ridership like NYC's suburbs are doing doesn't make sense. What's really suppressing the ridership is again the political boundaries, i.e. the Steeles corridor. Without Steeles, YRT will always be an incomplete system.

I didn't even realize that the NYC map was just a "fantasy". I'm certain most of those lines already exist.

But to your point, MiWay is leaps and bounds superior to YRT. There's even 24 hours bus service on some major routes now. Nothing south of Teston/Elgin Mills in York Region should be having less than 15 minutes frequency from 6AM to midnight.

 

[micheal_can]

York Region spends $137 million annually to subsidize YRT operations. Nassau County spends 1.9 million annually to subsidize NICE operations. $137 million vs. 1.9 million.

York Region and Mississauga recently spent hundreds of millions on a busway and a subway to Toronto. GO also gives a major discount to GO Train riders transferring to/from local buses. To suggest that the situation in NYC area is comparable to the GTA is just ridiculous.

The difference in funding is reflected in the difference in ridership: Mississauga's MiWay by itself has higher ridership than NICE and Westchester County's Bee Line Bus combined. That is 3 times the ridership per capita. Even before you add in Brampton Transit, YRT and DRT, there is already no comparison. It's just a completely different attitude towards bus riders down there.

They may be spending, but they have only recently have been doing that.

 

[doady]

I didn't even realize that the NYC map was just a "fantasy". I'm certain most of those lines already exist.

But to your point, MiWay is leaps and bounds superior to YRT. There's even 24 hours bus service on some major routes now. Nothing south of Teston/Elgin Mills in York Region should be having less than 15 minutes frequency from 6AM to midnight.

Mississauga has a few routes with 15 minute or better frequency from 6am all the way to 10pm or 11pm, but not midnight. The new 24 hour service is weekdays only, for the night shift workers, because Mississauga is mostly industrial, and of course it also has the airport. Mississauga is also older and denser than York Region, with hundreds of mid rise and high rise apartment buildings from the 60s and 70s. It has more resemblence to Scarborough or North York. Mississauga is also less affluent than York. It is just a different situation.

York Region already spends the same amount per capita on transit as Mississauga does. York Region Transit operating subsidy is $136 million while Mississauga is $87 million annually. York provides 1.3 million service hours while Mississauga provides 1.6 million. Even though it spends the same amount per capita, York gets only half of the transit service hours per capita as Mississauga. It's the lack of riders that's holding YRT service back, not the lack of spending.

 

[doady]

What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:

Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.

 

[micheal_can]

What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:

Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.

The problem with that is Toronto and York Region have to play nice together.

 

[Rainforest]

What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:

Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.

Centre Street is a problem between Yonge and Bathurst; it is a very narrow "heritage" street with that has one lane in each direction, and plenty of stop signs. Not very suitable for BRT. VIVA has a good reason to use Hwy 7 between Yonge and Bathurst.

Other than that, I agree with your map. Steeles looks great as a VIVA route.

 

[Leo_Chan]

What the VIVA system should be and should have been from the very beginning:

Addressing the Steeles void to complete the grid, focusing on major corridors with longer and straighter routes without diversions onto side streets, and wider stop spacing, serving major stops only, no minor stops. Seem like obvious features for express or BRT routes to provide an faster alternative to the regular routes, but apparently not obvious enough for the people at YRT.

YRT doesn't need so many convoluted routes that also change depending on the day and the time of day. Simple is better and it starts with VIVA.

I agree that Viva Purple (Orange) service along Yonge St and Centre St does make sense, as the (finished) Rapidway on Highway 7 between Bathurst and Yonge is basically a waste of potential development. However, I disagree with removing so many midblock stops, as that reduces the amount for density along the whole corridors. Although, if there were passing lanes for express express service then maybe, but that requires significant widening of the ROW. Do you have any suggestions for the future of the CURRENT Viva system?

The problem with that is Toronto and York Region have to play nice together.

That is true, but YRT/Viva service on Steeles Ave is a planned future unfunded service.

 

[Rainforest]

I agree that Viva Purple (Orange) service along Yonge St and Centre St does make sense, as the (finished) Rapidway on Highway 7 between Bathurst and Yonge is basically a waste of potential development.

You can't develop that stretch because of its heritage status.

They actually got this bit right. The Rapidway uses Hwy 7 between Yonge and Bathurst since no better path exists, then shifts to Bathurst, and then to Centre between Bathurst and Dufferin. Those sections of both Bathurst and Centre are wide enough to host BRT lanes, and can be developed.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The trouble is that VIVA soaked up much of the funding for the system and the basic network has been facing cuts and service reductions for the past decade.

 

[Rainforest]

The trouble is that VIVA soaked up much of the funding for the system and the basic network has been facing cuts and service reductions for the past decade.

True that YRT basic network sucks big time. The frequencies are so low that, combined with congestion that makes adherence to the schedule difficult, their system outside VIVA is barely usable at all. When going north of Steeles, I always drive unless my destination is near a VIVA stop.

Not sure VIVA is to blame though. The bulk of VIVA buses serve the Yonge corridor; that corridor is very well used, and would require lots of buses anyway, VIVA or not. The VIVA Markham section of Hwy 7 has decent usage, too, and would require buses as well. One might question the need of both VIVA and bus #77 on Hwy 7 west of Yonge, but saving there would be a drop in the bucket compared to the whole list of YRT routes.

They could optimize the western section a bit; operate the Purple between Markham and the 407 subway station, and make an agreement with Brampton Transit to double the 501 Zum as "VIVA" service west of Jane. VIVA Orange wouldn't be needed at all, while bus #77 would take care of the Hwy 7 through service across Jane. However, as stated above, savings from this change wouldn't salvage the YRT's basic frequencies.

Notably better frequencies can only come from a larger operating subsidy.

 

[doady]

Highway 7 will have the rapidway, but not much else along it. Centre St, even without a rapidway, is still the faster, more direct route, half the distance from Bathurst to Yonge.

At Keele, the 77 takes 21 minutes to travel to Yonge a time saving of 4 minutes compared to Viva Orange. Only starting at Vaughan Metropolitan Centre does Viva Orange provide an advantage, taking 29 minutes to get to Yonge while 77 takes 32 minutes. And that is only an advantage assuming riders want to go north along Yonge. If they want to eventualy go south along Yonge, then Viva Orange only provides a speed advantage west of Weston.

It's a similar problem with Viva Purple vs. route 1. Prioritizing Highway 7 over Steeles is bad enough, but they also divert buses off Highway 7 in favour of a lesser corridor, Enterprise, adding 8 minutes to the travel time. So during the midday, depending on the branch, Purple takes either 31 or 39 minutes to get from McCowan to Yonge, while the 1 takes 36 minutes. So on average Purple only provides 1 minute advantage over route 1. But of course that's not taking into account the 63 minute headway of the 1. 63 minutes.

Also compare Purple from McCowan to Yonge to the 101 Dundas Express from Islington to Wolfedale, both 12km. No rapidway along Dundas, no all-door boarding, but the 101 takes 29 minutes to travel that distance, either 2 minutes faster or 10 minutes faster than Viva Purple, thanks to being a straighter route serving fewer stops. Depending on the branch, Viva Purple serves 15 or 16 stops between those two points while 101 Dundas Express only serves 10 stops in-between. Maybe 101 can ignore the minor stops because 1 Dundas has 17 minute service instead of 63 minutes.

They kill the regular YRT service in favour of Viva. Then, instead of taking advantage of the expensive rapidways and stations and POP fare system, they use smaller stop spacing to make up for the regular YRT service they killed. The end result is not much savings in terms of travel time or operating costs from the regular YRT service. The Viva routes also become more isolated due to less regular bus service to connect to.

You can see all over the US they spend massive amount of money on rapid transit and light rail at the expense of the regular bus service and then their ridership declines. YRT is a similar story. Viva Yellow? Wasn't Viva Green wasn't bad enough? Viva should be more than a marketing gimmick. If they focused less on marketing, and more on creating an actual useful system, they would have the ridership to fund more service. Ultimately it is the ridership (fare revenue) that determines the amount of service.

 

[Rainforest]

Highway 7 will have the rapidway, but not much else along it. Centre St, even without a rapidway, is still the faster, more direct route, half the distance from Bathurst to Yonge.

At Keele, the 77 takes 21 minutes to travel to Yonge a time saving of 4 minutes compared to Viva Orange. Only starting at Vaughan Metropolitan Centre does Viva Orange provide an advantage, taking 29 minutes to get to Yonge while 77 takes 32 minutes. And that is only an advantage assuming riders want to go north along Yonge. If they want to eventualy go south along Yonge, then Viva Orange only provides a speed advantage west of Weston.

It's a similar problem with Viva Purple vs. route 1. Prioritizing Highway 7 over Steeles is bad enough, but they also divert buses off Highway 7 in favour of a lesser corridor, Enterprise, adding 8 minutes to the travel time. So during the midday, depending on the branch, Purple takes either 31 or 39 minutes to get from McCowan to Yonge, while the 1 takes 36 minutes. So on average Purple only provides 1 minute advantage over route 1. But of course that's not taking into account the 63 minute headway of the 1. 63 minutes.

Also compare Purple from McCowan to Yonge to the 101 Dundas Express from Islington to Wolfedale, both 12km. No rapidway along Dundas, no all-door boarding, but the 101 takes 29 minutes to travel that distance, either 2 minutes faster or 10 minutes faster than Viva Purple, thanks to being a straighter route serving fewer stops. Depending on the branch, Viva Purple serves 15 or 16 stops between those two points while 101 Dundas Express only serves 10 stops in-between. Maybe 101 can ignore the minor stops because 1 Dundas has 17 minute service instead of 63 minutes.

They kill the regular YRT service in favour of Viva. Then, instead of taking advantage of the expensive rapidways and stations and POP fare system, they use smaller stop spacing to make up for the regular YRT service they killed. The end result is not much savings in terms of travel time or operating costs from the regular YRT service. The Viva routes also become more isolated due to less regular bus service to connect to.

You can see all over the US they spend massive amount of money on rapid transit and light rail at the expense of the regular bus service and then their ridership declines. YRT is a similar story. Viva Yellow? Wasn't Viva Green wasn't bad enough? Viva should be more than a marketing gimmick. If they focused less on marketing, and more on creating an actual useful system, they would have the ridership to fund more service. Ultimately it is the ridership (fare revenue) that determines the amount of service.

I have to agree that spending money on Rapidways isn't necessarily the best move. They could operate Viva Purple / Pink / Orange under the brand name, and semi-express, but still in mixed traffic, and use the savings to improve the basic service.

Surprised to hear that route 1 gets from Keele to Yonge faster than Viva. Maybe, that's the result of ongoing construction (Rapidways) on Bathurst and on the Bathurst / Hwy 7 ramps. Otherwise it is hard to imagine the "heritage" section of Centre street (40 kph speed limit with multiple stop signs) being faster than Hwy 7 with its high speed and a single traffic light between Bathurst and Yonge.

 

[doady]

I have to agree that spending money on Rapidways isn't necessarily the best move. They could operate Viva Purple / Pink / Orange under the brand name, and semi-express, but still in mixed traffic, and use the savings to improve the basic service.

Surprised to hear that route 1 gets from Keele to Yonge faster than Viva. Maybe, that's the result of ongoing construction (Rapidways) on Bathurst and on the Bathurst / Hwy 7 ramps. Otherwise it is hard to imagine the "heritage" section of Centre street (40 kph speed limit with multiple stop signs) being faster than Hwy 7 with its high speed and a single traffic light between Bathurst and Yonge.

Viva Orange travels around 8km to get from Keele to Yonge while the 77 travels around 6km. So Viva Orange buses would have to travel 33% faster to match the 77. Right now they travel 12% faster. To compare, Viva Purple buses travel 16% faster than than 1 Highway 7 buses, and 101 Dundas Express buses travel 24% faster than 1 Dundas buses. Diversions like Bathurst and Enterprise don't seem like much but it's hard to make up for the extra time they add.

Viva Orange is diverted off of Centre St, Langstaff Road is broken, Steeles is TTC, so the 77 is the only direct route to Yonge for YRT riders south of Rutherford.