Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[jtaylor247]

With calls to build the DRL all the way up to eglinton, perhaps it would be best to just connect it to the sheppard subway stub at don mills. This would make the shepard subway a bit less "out of place" perhaps. Any thoughts?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Yeah Juan_Lennon, where will the money come from? Perhaps the same place that money comes from on the current Sheppard bus, the Finch Bus, the Jane Bus, the Queen Streetcar? You should know by now that that's a pretty stupid argument.

What is stupid is you making no attempt whatsoever to get off your butt and complain to the decision makers. Instead you come on this site everyday and argue (which has amounted to nothing) against the Sheppard East LRT. You want a Sheppard Subway extension? Go and present your arguments for a subway extension to Giambrone, Miller, City Council, Metrolinx, and TTC...not to other UT members. Do it within the next 2 weeks.

I am very happy to hear over and over that you want the Sheppard Subway extended because that will not happen! Sheppard East LRT will be built and will be with us for a long time!

 

[kettal]

With calls to build the DRL all the way up to eglinton, perhaps it would be best to just connect it to the sheppard subway stub at don mills. This would make the shepard subway a bit less "out of place" perhaps. Any thoughts?

I like the idea, but Don Mills still has a long way to go before it becomes suitable for a subway. (same goes for Sheppard, though)

 

[Inkarnate]

Second_in_pie: LRT sucks lol

Juan_Lennon416: subway sucks lol

This is basically the vibe that I am getting here.

 

[RedRocket191]

Second_in_pie: LRT sucks lol

Juan_Lennon416: subway sucks lol

This is basically the vibe that I am getting here.

Welcome to Urban Toronto

 

[jtaylor247]

I like the idea, but Don Mills still has a long way to go before it becomes suitable for a subway. (same goes for Sheppard, though)

Right. Perhaps we just bite that bullet and run it the Don Valley outside to save money. That said, Lawrence and Don Mills is a somewhat reasonable subway stop. I have no idea about York Mills and Don Mills.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Second_in_pie: LRT sucks lol

Juan_Lennon416: subway sucks lol

This is basically the vibe that I am getting here.

lol...I love subways but I just think a Sheppard Subway extension is not needed at this time

 

[Dan416]

I like the idea, but Don Mills still has a long way to go before it becomes suitable for a subway. (same goes for Sheppard, though)

Hell, Spadina isn't packed like sardines. It should really be downgraded to a surface-level LRT. That'll help.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Evne if the Sheppard Subway were to be extended, where will the money come from to operate it (along with an Eglinton Subway and DRL)?

From the same place that the money for operating the Spadina and Yonge extensions. Sheppard, in fact, already has line trackage and trains assigned to it. A few Km extension East or West would arguably be able to be met with current conditions and a few extra trainsets. Oddly enough the TTC is ordering a bunch of new TR trains to run on the YUS and phasing out some older trains. Some trains could then be shifted to Sheppard operation.

To extend your argument further. Where is any of the money to operate any of the infrastructure improvements that the TTC is planning going to come from? Senior governments are more than happy to show up at dig and ribbon cutting ceremonies but none are interested in providing the TTC with any money for operations.

 

[Agram]

Next time you ride the Sheppard line you will notice that only the newer T1 train cars are put on this line. Its a pain in the arss trying to keep track of the cars that are up there, but upper staff only wants newer trains on this line.

 

[Tdot_one]

Are you for real? The town centre thing is a great idea. It might have been a good idea in the 50s to focus development on downtown and reduce suburbia as much as possible, but we didn't. Now we have a pretty large sea of suburbs. If we don't want them all driving downtown to work, we have to give them good transit. Now, they're not going to take a bus 2 hours to work downtown, they want to take something that's fast. But what justification is there in building a subway through a suburban arterial? Nil to none. So if we want to be able to build real rapid transit, we should increase density.

If Toronto just focuses all of it's expansion on downtown, you can be assured at least 50% of the city's new residents will be using the TTC, biking or just walking to where they want to go to. But the millions of people that don't live downtown will be without and real RT to use, and they'll just continue to drive to work downtown. By creating nodal development, you create corridors to provide rapid transit in, and create a central area in a community.

You can't justify that town centres are bad because you don't think we should spend money on a totally logical extension of the B-D subway to STC. All the problems that may be associated with Toronto's current nodal development are due to a lack of commitment and action towards transit to serve the built form of the city, not because of a coherent flaw in the ideology.

Subways are an extremely inefficient way of getting around the city. Remember in NYC, subways include express service as well. Service on Toronto subway are supposed to be local. It provides a fast, high capacity through a high density corridor.

Once GO rail is electified, many people will be switching from subway. One of the issues at the moment is isolated station. However that can change if the areas around the station were developed and integrated with transit corridors. Crosstown line(s ) can solve the issues of poor connectivity

Subways, on the other hand, should provide local[ service. That was what was being argued earlier. The Sheppard corridor probably would require a local, 30,000pph service. I think the same would apply for Eglinton as well. These areas may look boring, but they have extensive density.

I can see a fiftty highrises in a fairly typical 2km stretch on Eglinton within Scarborough. Most of the ones I noted are 500m or so from the corridor, ignoring those that are 1-2km away.. If one walks to these apartments, one can see a high presence of cars. These working class residential neighborhoods still have a very significant who solely use the automobile.

 

[kettal]

Hell, Spadina isn't packed like sardines. It should really be downgraded to a surface-level LRT. That'll help.

Having a fully staffed subway station in a place like the Don Mills & York Mills intersection... a station which could never hope to see more than 600 passengers in a day, is just a money pit.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Subways are an extremely inefficient way of getting around the city. Remember in NYC, subways include express service as well. Service on Toronto subway are supposed to be local. It provides a fast, high capacity through a high density corridor.

So I have a question, why can NYC subways be long-distance, while Toronto subways can't? If you remember, the NYC express subways have about the same spacing as one concession in Toronto, and if you remember the subway map, the Yonge line north of Eglinton only stops at concessions, save North York Centre station. Also, the Sheppard line has the same kind of stop spacing, save Bessarion station.
Subway is supposed to be a part local, part regional method of travel. It has significantly higher speeds than busses and LRTs, and it has the capacity to provide a local service while maintaining that speed. Subway is supposed to go in high density corridors, in areas that people may come to it to get to destinations further away.

Once GO rail is electified, many people will be switching from subway. One of the issues at the moment is isolated station. However that can change if the areas around the station were developed and integrated with transit corridors. Crosstown line(s ) can solve the issues of poor connectivity

Umm Crosstown Go lines, or Crosstown Subways? I can agree that many people will switch to Go from subway, but that still leaves a lot of holes in the system. For instance, an Eglinton subway would provide a local service along the high density and fairly redevelopable route that is Eglinton, as well as a longer distance service to Pearson, which can be quite a major trip generator.

Subways, on the other hand, should provide local[ service. That was what was being argued earlier. The Sheppard corridor probably would require a local, 30,000pph service. I think the same would apply for Eglinton as well. These areas may look boring, but they have extensive density.

I can see a fiftty highrises in a fairly typical 2km stretch on Eglinton within Scarborough. Most of the ones I noted are 500m or so from the corridor, ignoring those that are 1-2km away.. If one walks to these apartments, one can see a high presence of cars. These working class residential neighborhoods still have a very significant who solely use the automobile.

Wait a sec, I'm confused. Is this in the argument against a subway on Sheppard or Eglinton, or for it?

Yes, people drive in the suburbs. No surprise. If you want them to get out of their cars, give them rapid transit. I'm sure some will come out for LRT, but a corridor like Eglinton could catch hundreds of thousands of riders, and the service and connectivity is uncomparable to LRT.

Having a fully staffed subway station in a place like the Don Mills & York Mills intersection... a station which could never hope to see more than 600 passengers in a day, is just a money pit.

Thanks for playing.

But would the connectivity between Sheppard and the DRL be worth it? I'm sure there's tonnes of ridership that could be milked out of such a line. Don Mills is one of the densest roads in the city, and having a conection with Eglinton to the south and Sheppard to the north could make it's transit usage soar, again, in a way that LRT never could. I think the best reason to extend the DRL north is that, among all these things of density, it could connect with Seneca college, which would make quite an anchor for the line.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

According to Councillor Ootes in today's Toronto Sun, he would like the mayoral candidates to review Transit City and see if "the answer is more streetcars, or subways"

 

[Tdot_one]

So I have a question, why can NYC subways be long-distance, while Toronto subways can't? If you remember, the NYC express subways have about the same spacing as one concession in Toronto, and if you remember the subway map, the Yonge line north of Eglinton only stops at concessions, save North York Centre station. Also, the Sheppard line has the same kind of stop spacing, save Bessarion station.

NYC subway may not be a very ideal route to take, though. That doesn't mean that I think that subways aren't required on the argued corridors, like Munro et al, but feel that there needs to be a development of express (GO) and local (LRT) forms of transportation as well.

Subway is supposed to be a part local, part regional method of travel. It has significantly higher speeds than busses and LRTs, and it has the capacity to provide a local service while maintaining that speed. Subway is supposed to go in high density corridors, in areas that people may come to it to get to destinations further away.

Subways could be used as a regional route, but when GO alternatives exist, it may not make sense. However on a corridor like Eglinton or Shepard, subway will be required, along with some regional crosstown line(s*).

Umm Crosstown Go lines, or Crosstown Subways? I can agree that many people will switch to Go from subway, but that still leaves a lot of holes in the system. For instance, an Eglinton subway would provide a local service along the high density and fairly redevelopable route that is Eglinton, as well as a longer distance service to Pearson, which can be quite a major trip generator.

Of course. Holes will exist, but if we're looking at the GTA and Goldenhorseshoe as a whole, the majority are living outside the dense city. There's some 6 millon in the GGH outside of Toronto and that'll be a significant source of riders.

]Wait a sec, I'm confused. Is this in the argument against a subway on Sheppard or Eglinton, or for it?

I am not necessarily argueing against either. However, if we're dealing with long range transit, GO is definitely the more ideal form of transporation. I feel that a multiple modes of transpotation with have to be developed in order to serve a variety of populations.

It's obvious that the "low" ridership figures on Sheppard are blasted is founded. Truth is, the figures ought to be viewed as impressive, because the line hasn't been extended to Downsview, nor has it been extended past Kennedy, where the majority of ridership is present.

The line operating at this level isn't that surprising, because it isn't a complete line at all. Most transit development overseas have suggested that if frequency and connectivity is present, riders will use it. That is quite clear even in similar density cities such as Berlin, for example.

Yes, people drive in the suburbs. No surprise. If you want them to get out of their cars, give them rapid transit. I'm sure some will come out for LRT, but a corridor like Eglinton could catch hundreds of thousands of riders, and the service and connectivity is uncomparable to LRT.

The LRTs are part of an overall strategy to maximize the city's taxbase. That is, enhance its very high income population. Developing attractive, green-conscious, where the vast majority use PT is going to be the aim.

LRTs don't have a very high catchment area. That is why we're not seeing bus bays being built in LRT stations that are located in low-density areas. Ironically, the majority living in Toronto are actually low and very low income and will likely be concentrated in those sprawls.

Having said that, subways can certainly do the same, as we see on Sheppard, but LRTs are cheaper and can be placed in numerous locations. That is why it is being built in undesirable areas within Toronto. I think if discussions focused more on aims, the overall objectives will make a lot more sense.

But would the connectivity between Sheppard and the DRL be worth it? I'm sure there's tonnes of ridership that could be milked out of such a line. Don Mills is one of the densest roads in the city, and having a conection with Eglinton to the south and Sheppard to the north could make it's transit usage soar, again, in a way that LRT never could. I think the best reason to extend the DRL north is that, among all these things of density, it could connect with Seneca college, which would make quite an anchor for the line.

I agree. The potential development could result to the establishment of secondary sectors, not just low-level commercial, but research and high level fabrication and production as well. Connecting city centers to downtown and intensifying at downtown levels would result to immense returns.

In addition, subways would connect the local majority to employment generators. It significantly increase its catchment range allowing affordable areas to be served within its range. The bus-feeder system is the reason why Toronto's aggreggate and per capita ridership is much greater than Melbourne despite having a much smaller rail and tram network.