Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Do nothing to Sheppard for years? You must be crazy! There is no guarantee that funding for a subway could come anytime soon.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Do nothing to Sheppard for years? You must be crazy! There is no guarantee that funding for a subway could come anytime soon.
Dan416
Senior Member
If the buses are slow and overcrowded, then a subway is needed. If they aren't, then there's no need for an LRT either.
The obsession with putting an unwanted LRT on Sheppard East to piss on Mel Lastman's legacy is worrying.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
That a 5000 ppdph (if that..) mode is over crowded doesn't automatically warrant a 30,000 ppdph mode.
Fresh Start
Banned
No one's saying overcrowding's occuring along Sheppard East (yet). However if to the south of Sheppard there's a major trip generator that commuters travelling east along Sheppard would most likely want direct access to (at least more so than most desire anything between Midland and Meadowvale) and the crossing of the 401 requires a grade-separated ROW crossing anyway, why not pursue the expansion of the subway line instead? Given the width of Sheppard East, bus lanes could run down the median same as LRT and if warrantd in the future the busway can always be upgraded to LRT as it would already be a partioned private ROW separate from the multi-purpose lanes. But in the mean time there be enough capital for both a subway extension and bus rapid transit to the Zoo. These are logical options the existing power structure continues to ignore whilst subjecting commuters to higher fares for lower qualities of service.
Fresh Start
Banned
Yes, all political structures/ideologies have had their faults and low-points. You only need watch the nightly news to assess the many ways in which democracy can fail. Remember Plato/Socrates thought democracy to be one step away from tyranny themselves. In fact, during the time most of Wesern Europe began developing its subways only a third of the citizenry experienced democracy in a manner as we've come to recognize it today. All I am saying is that in more illiberal societies, more has gotten accomplished in far less of a timeframe. Toronto hasn't experienced a boom in subway expansion since 1978, just piecemeal extensions and a subway to nowhere. I don't have a problem with everyone voicing their opinion, otherwise we'd have no forum within to air dissent. What bothers me is the self-serving nature of the politicans that we have elected in. Them to me, are just as corrupt as a dictator, only worse because they're being conceited about it.
I was critiquing the most heavily used actually, not most extensive. Moscow's second in the world only to Tokyo. If NYC's so great then how come yellow taxicabs are iconically used by everyone there?
I lean towards the PCP/NDP spectrum myself. Ironically, it's interesting to note the NDP approved the Eglinton West subway then Harris got elected and cancelled it. If the Eglinton West subway actually got built, do you think it'd be in the same jeopardy as Sheppard subway is to be expanded as an LRT instead of metro? If your answer is no then the same standard should be applicable to Sheppard with even greater densities en route with which to serve (Consumers; Agincourt).
But yeah I don't really blame the financial backers i.e. levels of government for Transit City, they only want to know that the money is being spent to assist the public so that they in term will vote them back come elction time. No, I blame the advisors and consulting firms that duped the public into thinking light rail is the next big thing when one only has to try to laywait a streetcar to be fed up with them.
kettal
Banned
It's more to do with wealth actually.
All these undemocratic countries had another thing in common besides being unfree: the average citizen could never afford to own a car. Transit was the only way.
Voltz
Senior Member
That is one big jump to go from buses to a full subway,
and why do people support LRT in other places where buses are full, what is so special about Sheppard?
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
It's just the nature of the corridor. First of all, it has the ability to connect the Spadina line and the Downsview developments with NYCC. Second, the meat of the line is anchored by two rather major growth nodes, which will continue to see thousands of new people and new jobs. Then, the entire Sheppard corridor is quite a high density corridor, littered with apartment blocks, and also the Consumer's business area/thing and Agincourt. Even if Sheppard didn't have all this, it could still be an important corridor just because it's a much more northern RT line than anything else we have or could have in the city. We'd want to have something in the north for people to use, and the fact that Sheppard is anchored in multiple places by high density nodes makes it the perfect candidate.
The TC LRT should not be taken as a form of RT at all. It should be looked upon in the same light as a bus service, because that is the kind of service it provides. Sure, it may be a bit faster and offer higher capacity, but at the end of it all, it does the same job.
If you look at dozens of European and the several Asian cities that are working with LRT, almost all of them are using LRT as a supplementary service. They already have their RT backbone to transport people around, so when a bus gets to the point of overcrowding, they upgrade it to LRT to improve capacity and faster speeds to the thousands of people who use the route; they can be justified for this higher speed because there's a lot of them, and the extra capacity solves the issue of overcrowding. To a lesser degree, it can also be used to milk out the last possible riders on a line, or to prop up a line that's not reaching it's full potential.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
^ Perhaps TC goal under it all is to redirect growth from nodes, to reduce expensive to provide long distance node to node travel. Instead of point tower nodes in a sea of single family, to create generally higher density more evenly distributed (and less likely to be NIMBY'd away).
By reinforcing the primacy of downtown (perhaps even reasserting), you reduce pressures for overbuilding at the 'town centres'.
Why is nodal growth even a good thing? Just because that pattern was encouraged by Metro Council does not mean it is a good thing. It encourages separateness between nodes and surrounding communities instead of bringing them together. Why push even more development at STC that would need more capacity than the SRT can provide?
Have STC pushers ever stopped to think: should there even be more very high density development at STC? (in the current pattern, towers surrounded or on top of monumental parking) Or is it better for the city for that development to be built in a more 'core' location.
By reinforcing the primacy of downtown (perhaps even reasserting), you reduce pressures for overbuilding at the 'town centres'.
Why is nodal growth even a good thing? Just because that pattern was encouraged by Metro Council does not mean it is a good thing. It encourages separateness between nodes and surrounding communities instead of bringing them together. Why push even more development at STC that would need more capacity than the SRT can provide?
Have STC pushers ever stopped to think: should there even be more very high density development at STC? (in the current pattern, towers surrounded or on top of monumental parking) Or is it better for the city for that development to be built in a more 'core' location.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Are you for real? The town centre thing is a great idea. It might have been a good idea in the 50s to focus development on downtown and reduce suburbia as much as possible, but we didn't. Now we have a pretty large sea of suburbs. If we don't want them all driving downtown to work, we have to give them good transit. Now, they're not going to take a bus 2 hours to work downtown, they want to take something that's fast. But what justification is there in building a subway through a suburban arterial? Nil to none. So if we want to be able to build real rapid transit, we should increase density.
If Toronto just focuses all of it's expansion on downtown, you can be assured at least 50% of the city's new residents will be using the TTC, biking or just walking to where they want to go to. But the millions of people that don't live downtown will be without and real RT to use, and they'll just continue to drive to work downtown. By creating nodal development, you create corridors to provide rapid transit in, and create a central area in a community.
You can't justify that town centres are bad because you don't think we should spend money on a totally logical extension of the B-D subway to STC. All the problems that may be associated with Toronto's current nodal development are due to a lack of commitment and action towards transit to serve the built form of the city, not because of a coherent flaw in the ideology.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
I don't know about you, but 50% of new residents using sustainable modes is a pretty good number to me. I doubt a new condo tower going up at STC would be anywhere near that level.
Aren't the numbers for car commuting to downtown down anyways - and when was the last extra lane added into downtown? It isn't like increased downtown employment means new freeways. The extra downtown employment is being fed by the GO system - the city could be capturing those residents instead of the suburbs with the right policies in place.
Why should there be a RT from NYC to STC? It isn't like there is a line linking the Bronx directly to Queens... There is hardly even much connection between Queens and Brooklyn - only one line does not require traveling through midtown and or downtown.
Aren't the numbers for car commuting to downtown down anyways - and when was the last extra lane added into downtown? It isn't like increased downtown employment means new freeways. The extra downtown employment is being fed by the GO system - the city could be capturing those residents instead of the suburbs with the right policies in place.
Why should there be a RT from NYC to STC? It isn't like there is a line linking the Bronx directly to Queens... There is hardly even much connection between Queens and Brooklyn - only one line does not require traveling through midtown and or downtown.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Evne if the Sheppard Subway were to be extended, where will the money come from to operate it (along with an Eglinton Subway and DRL)?
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
But if you focus on the town centre idea, the first 20 years of new residents may be using transit at a 25% rate, but all the people already living around that area will be getting on the transit bandwagon. If 1 million people arrived in the city in 20 years, there'd still be significantly more people using transit if we improved rapid transit out into the suburbs by using Suburban town centres as anchor points. If you don't see how that could help, when taking into account the fact that there's already two million people in the city that don't use transit regularly, then keep saying it. It doesn't make you right though.
Yeah Juan_Lennon, where will the money come from? Perhaps the same place that money comes from on the current Sheppard bus, the Finch Bus, the Jane Bus, the Queen Streetcar? You should know by now that that's a pretty stupid argument.
Voltz
Senior Member
Don't worry, ridership would just soar beyond belief, trains would be packed, and the TTC would be flush with fare revenue,
Jaye101
Active Member
That would happen after years of intensification.