Transit City Plan

[BMO]

Yes. Why wouldn't they. The Ontario Government has already made it clear that the money after the initial $8B would be provided based on the Metrolinx investment strategy that are required to release in 2013.

Why do they need one. It's already funded through 2020, and the post-2020 funding would be through the Metrolinx as discussed above.

Given how frequently all these things have been cited lately, it would be an insult to anyone paying attention to source everything to death. Obviously surface LRT doesn't cost $134 million a km ... I don't know why you'd say suggest such a thing. You've deliberately used underground LRT which costs about the same as subway (not surprising given the larger tunnel) to mislead. Shame on you!

So a government says they will do something, have NO funding plan, and are coming up with one 5yrs after the initial plan, and we are supposed to believe them? For someone who bashes on Ford and doesn't believe he can find a funding scheme for the subway, seems like the Liberals and Stintz are banking on the same thing....

Why would we need a sustainable funding plan? To ensure a constant and predictable expansion of public transit.

Did you not even read the source I cited that showed how much each plan costs per km? Honestly dude...It even goes so far as to compare ALL and every single plan that was talked about with regards to the MOU, and the current council plan.

 

[gweed123]

The discussion around where the next round of funding is coming from is being delayed because everyone knows it's going to be a political nightmare. Left wing politicians are going to be lukewarm to it at best (well, warm to it on the inside, lukewarm to it to the public), and right wing politicians are going to have a 'lefty bashing' field day with it.

Personally I think the best way to get people on board with it would be to do this:

1) Find some funding (parking levees, development charges, anything BUT tolls) to upgrade and electrify the Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors for all-day electrified GO service.

2) On the same day that both of those lines open, start tolling the express lanes of the 401, the QEW, the Gardiner, and the DVP.

3) Make it very clear to the public that the reason why these tolls are being implemented is to fund further GO improvements like on Lakeshore and Georgetown.

I think that the big thing with implementing road tolls now is that many people still consider transit service inadequate, and to start tolling roads now without seeing any results coming from it will only piss people off, because they can't see where their money is going. But if you open two great new GO lines on the same day you start tolling, there is a very clear 'this is what you're paying for' message.

4) Do the same thing for the Milton, Stouffville, and Barrie lines. Implement tolls on the 403, 400, 404, 409, 401 collectors, and 427 the same day.

5) Use the money from that to then fund local transit expansion (Phase 2 of the Toronto LRTs, as well as other 905 transit projects).

 

[SlickFranky]

Did you not even read the source I cited that showed how much each plan costs per km? Honestly dude...It even goes so far as to compare ALL and every single plan that was talked about with regards to the MOU, and the current council plan.

The $134M/km cited there is not for surface LRT, it's the average per km cost for the entire plan, which includes a lengthy tunneled stretch on Eglinton. Feel free to do some quick algebra to find out the surface LRT cost...

 

[andrewpmk]

The discussion around where the next round of funding is coming from is being delayed because everyone knows it's going to be a political nightmare. Left wing politicians are going to be lukewarm to it at best (well, warm to it on the inside, lukewarm to it to the public), and right wing politicians are going to have a 'lefty bashing' field day with it.

Personally I think the best way to get people on board with it would be to do this:

1) Find some funding (parking levees, development charges, anything BUT tolls) to upgrade and electrify the Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors for all-day electrified GO service.

2) On the same day that both of those lines open, start tolling the express lanes of the 401, the QEW, the Gardiner, and the DVP.

3) Make it very clear to the public that the reason why these tolls are being implemented is to fund further GO improvements like on Lakeshore and Georgetown.

I think that the big thing with implementing road tolls now is that many people still consider transit service inadequate, and to start tolling roads now without seeing any results coming from it will only piss people off, because they can't see where their money is going. But if you open two great new GO lines on the same day you start tolling, there is a very clear 'this is what you're paying for' message.

4) Do the same thing for the Milton, Stouffville, and Barrie lines. Implement tolls on the 403, 400, 404, 409, 401 collectors, and 427 the same day.

5) Use the money from that to then fund local transit expansion (Phase 2 of the Toronto LRTs, as well as other 905 transit projects).

I think that a private partner would have to be involved in order to make this credible. Otherwise there is just too much potential political pressure to lower/remove the tolls. The idea would be: private partner pays $X billion dollars to Metrolinx for transit projects which the province will build within the next 5-10 years. These transit projects might include GO improvements, downtown relief line, Sheppard subway, Eglinton subway, express GO buses using the now uncongested highways, better local transit, etc. At a predetermined date in the future when many of these projects are now in operation, the tolls will take effect and be paid to the private partner, or maybe the tolls will be phased in gradually. The contract would regulate the tolls so that drivers aren't seen as being ripped off like the 407 (for example, roads would be free from 12am-6am, the private partner wouldn't be allowed to charge high tolls at night like the 407 does).

 

[BMO]

The $134M/km cited there is not for surface LRT, it's the average per km cost for the entire plan, which includes a lengthy tunneled stretch on Eglinton. Feel free to do some quick algebra to find out the surface LRT cost...

Yes...so you're saying LRT would cost 7 times less than subway? Let's check out YOUR math. 335/7=47.8M/km Needless to say this is not an accurate description of how much LRT costs per km. Sheppard is estimated at 85M/km http://www.pembina.org/blog/500 and that has NO underground portion. Here's another source http://dcnonl.com/article/id42362

Please, don't defend Nfitz's ignorant comments about costs, when they are blatant lies. He would call out anybody else if they did the same.

cheers,

 

[leopetr]

Sheppard ... has NO underground portion.

Sure it does. In the current plan, there's underground LRT from Don Mills to Consumers Road, ~1km. It involves cut-and-cover tunnelling across the 404, presumably with expensive steps taken to not shut the 404 down.

 

[Palma]

Yes...so you're saying LRT would cost 7 times less than subway? Let's check out YOUR math. 335/7=47.8M/km Needless to say this is not an accurate description of how much LRT costs per km. Sheppard is estimated at 85M/km http://www.pembina.org/blog/500 and that has NO underground portion. Here's another source http://dcnonl.com/article/id42362

Please, don't defend Nfitz's ignorant comments about costs, when they are blatant lies. He would call out anybody else if they did the same.

cheers,

The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million which went from Yonge to I think around Weston Rd. That whole, stretch is what perhaps 7-10km. So how can sheppard be estimated at 85m per km

 

[SlickFranky]

Yes...so you're saying LRT would cost 7 times less than subway? Let's check out YOUR math. 335/7=47.8M/km Needless to say this is not an accurate description of how much LRT costs per km. Sheppard is estimated at 85M/km http://www.pembina.org/blog/500 and that has NO underground portion. Here's another source http://dcnonl.com/article/id42362

Please, don't defend Nfitz's ignorant comments about costs, when they are blatant lies. He would call out anybody else if they did the same.

cheers,

I'm not defending anyone. Nor am I saying anything is 7 times anything else. I'm saying the numbers you're quoting for surface LRT are not for surface LRT.

Y $/km = ($8.2B - [# km's tunneled x $335M]) / (# km's surface)

Insert the numbers, solve for Y, that's your rough cost per km of surface. I don't know if it's 7 times less...I don't really care. But if you insist on arguing about numbers you should at least have the right numbers.

 

[nfitz]

Sheppard is estimated at 85M/km

That however includes both an extensive underground section from Don Mills Road to Consumers Drive, the new yard for the Sheppard East LRT line and the SRT line, and all the vehicles for Sheppard East.

Please, don't defend Nfitz's ignorant comments about costs

That's ironic given that you are deliberately using misleading numbers to try and justify subways where they make no sense.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million which went from Yonge to I think around Weston Rd. That whole, stretch is what perhaps 7-10km. So how can sheppard be estimated at 85m per km

The St. Clair line ends just west of Keele. Keele is 6 km west of Yonge. 170/6=28.3.

 

[BMO]

Sure it does. In the current plan, there's underground LRT from Don Mills to Consumers Road, ~1km. It involves cut-and-cover tunnelling across the 404, presumably with expensive steps taken to not shut the 404 down.

How is that relevant? ANY LRT line that would be built, would have a portion of it underground at either Finch West Station or Don Mills, or what have you? Saying that LRT is X amount because of a tiny underground section is NOT representative of LRT's costs for "surface LRT" Surface LRT as a whole, especially on Finch and Sheppard are being touted as cheaper. Then if so (which they are) you should be able to grasp the concept that going underground at Don Mills and Finch St West are just a reality that the line must incur.

 

[BMO]

That however includes both an extensive underground section from Don Mills Road to Consumers Drive, the new yard for the Sheppard East LRT line and the SRT line, and all the vehicles for Sheppard East.

That's ironic given that you are deliberately using misleading numbers to try and justify subways where they make no sense.

What are you smoking? You of all ppl are the first person to point out that the actual costs of subways are much higher because of train yards......so how come that doesn't apply to LRT? Where is the proof that the subway numbers don't take into account rolling stock and yards?

wow the left is really showing their colours on this one...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

BMO:

But to use that particular instance to justify surface LRT as having a comparable unit cost to subways in general - which is what you're doing and the gist of this conversation - is a form of logical dishonesty. Nothing to do with whether one plan is superior to the other.

AoD

 

[BMO]

The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million which went from Yonge to I think around Weston Rd. That whole, stretch is what perhaps 7-10km. So how can sheppard be estimated at 85m per km

Ok, so one second St. Clair "isn't LRT" and the next second it is?

Please get back to me when you guys have come to a consensus on this, because it only works against your argument for why LRT in teh rest of the city will NOT be like St.Clair

 

[BMO]

BMO:

But to use that particular instance to justify LRT as having a comparable cost to subways in general - which is what you're doing and the gist of this conversation - is a form of logical dishonesty.

AoD

NO it's not at all. LRT has added costs...I just stated that the costs are higher than what was falsely pointed out by Nfitz.

To quote him

"How can that possibly be? They cost about 7 times more per kilometre, and have similiar replacement life cycles. If they lasted 7 times longer, then perhaps you would break even, if inflation was 0 ... Can you point to any evidence to support such an unusual opinion?"

Where does he refer to surface LRT? No he does not, he just refers to LRT. It's a dishonesty to say LRT is 7 times cheaper on Eglinton, when if you look at the whole line, it isn't 7 times cheaper. That's like saying oh I'm going to compare the total cost of subways based on this one section of the line where it will be completely at-grade and above ground, so it won't be as expensive as underground...

Time and time again he feels like it is vastly important to scrutinize everyone else's arguments, so it is only fitting he should receive the same form of scrutiny. With most people I would take any comment as just a healthy discussion of the issues and say "whatever" and research the stuff on my own for the "true facts" but Nfitz is a special person...whom i've come to expect a superior level of credibility, based on how he responds to comments on here.