Transit City Plan

[Palma]

Yes...so you're saying LRT would cost 7 times less than subway? Let's check out YOUR math. 335/7=47.8M/km Needless to say this is not an accurate description of how much LRT costs per km. Sheppard is estimated at 85M/km http://www.pembina.org/blog/500 and that has NO underground portion. Here's another source http://dcnonl.com/article/id42362

Please, don't defend Nfitz's ignorant comments about costs, when they are blatant lies. He would call out anybody else if they did the same.

cheers,

This is what I don;t understand - how can Sheppard be 85m/km

 

[Palma]

Think of it as putting in a new cabinets in your kitchen. The cost of the cabinets cost $X. But then you find there was old galvanized water pipes and clay sewers. That needs replacing, more $Y. The old electrical was actually knob and tube, which also needs replacing, more $Z. The insulation was actually old newspapers, that needs spray foam insulation, more $I. Instead of $X, it becomes $A = $X + $Y + $Z +$I. So instead of $X, it cost $A, but the cabinets still cost $X.

So it was with St. Clair. The cost of the ROW was still $65 million, it was the extra add-ons that increased the price.

But who is to say the same thing or some of it won't happen again for the other LRT lines causing them to go overbudget

 

[nfitz]

When I said "The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million" what I meant to say was it cost less than 170 million. And the reason I used 170 million was because i knew it was over 100 million but could not remember for sure how much. And it did not cost 60-65 million as you say. It was originally projected at 48 million, then revised to 65 million and then estimated at 106 million. I am not even sure if that the final figure because that was before the last 300 metres were built and who knows if that part went over

The total cost of the project was $106 million according to TTC's post-mortem - most of the work was completed at that time, and I didn't see any additional funding requests beyond that. The TTC budget was $65 million in 2005 with 2 years of construction being completed in 2006. $30 million of the additional cost this was for the project the added on late to put Hydro Underground. There were also costs related to enhanced street lighting, relocation of hydrants, and sidewalk and roadway enhancements.

Even if you only assume the only out-of-budget item was the $30 million for Hydro, then at worst it increased 17% from $65 million to $76 million. Which isn't bad given there's a few years of inflation in there, with some of those years seeing the inflation rate for construction at over 5% a year.

The two main reason that the cost went up, was the huge increase in scope, and the delays in the project - from the scope changes and the judicial review (remember that the judge in charge of the judicial review, Ted Matlow, was was found guilty of misconduct relating to his bias against the city).

So with a 6.8 km length, the cost was either $9.6 million/km or $11.2 million/km, depending on whenever you consider the extra $11 million was non-TTC scope, or just overspending.

Either way, it's not the disaster that some pretend.

But who is to say the same thing or some of it won't happen again for the other LRT lines causing them to go overbudget

Isn't that the whole point of the post-mortem? To learn from the mistakes, and not repeat them? To consult with the community early, rather than late - haven't they been doing this on the Transit City lines? To define the scope initially, rather than late - which they had also been doing - though Rob Ford seems to be hell bent to change the scope half-way through ... fortunately council has set that straight. To avoid all the small contracts, and do general contracting - haven't they been doing this?

TTC hasn't had a problem doing the big projects on-time, on-budget. The Sheppard line came in on budget. The Downsview station was on budget as far as I recall. All reports are that the Spadina extension is on budget.

 

[Palma]

So how is it possible about 1B is earmarked for the Finch LRT (Saw the figure on another post). How can it be so high? The distance from Humber college to keele (at Finch) is slightly less than 11km

 

[nfitz]

So how is it possible about 1B is earmarked for the Finch LRT (Saw the figure on another post). How can it be so high? The distance from Humber college to keele (at Finch) is slightly less than 11km

Partially because the budget amount is using escalated dollars. If you look at the 5 in 10 document the $8.2 billion had become almost $11-billion by the time you went from 2010 dollars to escalated year of spending dollars. Playing with the numbers they got, it looks as though the assumed about a 5% inflation rate - which is a typical rule-of-thumb for this type of construction - inflated 2010/2011 by 0.5 years, 2011/2012 by 1.5 years ... to 2019/2020 by 9.5 years. So if you deflate the $1.28 billion they estimate for Finch back to 2010 dollars you get $913.2 million ... or about $80 million/km.

Keep in mind though, that this includes the proposed Norfinch yards (I'd guess that would be about $200 million in escalated dollars based on Ashbridges) and also 23 vehicles (which at $4.2 million each would be about $97 million in escalated dollars). If we deescalate those number proportionally, the cost for the LRT construction itself drops to $701 million in 2010 dollars. Or $64 million per kilometre.

 

[Rainforest]

This is what I don;t understand - how can Sheppard be 85m/km

1) Sheppard LRT needs a 1-km tunnel between Don Mills and DVP, and a relatively expensive underground terminus at Don Mills. The cost of those parts boosts the per-km average for the whole line.

2) Comparing St Clair to Sheppard: in the former case, the street had 6 lanes already, they just had to rebuild the tracks and add some other elements to designate the lanes as streetcar-only. Same cars, same yards, same termini, same St Clair West underground loop.

For Sheppard, they will have to widen the road to add 2 more lanes, expropriate some properties with compensation, buy vehicles, and build the new yard at Conlins.

 

[W. K. Lis]

1) Sheppard LRT needs a 1-km tunnel between Don Mills and DVP, and a relatively expensive underground terminus at Don Mills. The cost of those parts boosts the per-km average for the whole line.

2) Comparing St Clair to Sheppard: in the former case, the street had 6 lanes already, they just had to rebuild the tracks and add some other elements to designate the lanes as streetcar-only. Same cars, same yards, same termini, same St Clair West underground loop.

For Sheppard, they will have to widen the road to add 2 more lanes, expropriate some properties with compensation, buy vehicles, and build the new yard at Conlins.

The boulevard is already owned by the city, city property includes the sidewalk, the light poles, and part way further. The bus laybys will disappear.

 

[Rainforest]

The boulevard is already owned by the city, city property includes the sidewalk, the light poles, and part way further. The bus laybys will disappear.

AFAIK, that's true for most of the route, but in some places they will have to cut into private front yards to widen the street. Don't know if that is a minor expenditure or more than that.

Anyway, the Sheppard LRT project involves much more of street reconfiguration that in case of St Clair, plus new vehicles, new yard, and the 1-km underground section west of DVP with an underground terminus. I am not surprised at all that the projected per-km cost is several times greater than for St Clair.

 

[Solid Snake]

Harper prefers subways

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...sit-debate-he-prefers-subways/article2364538/

So PM, where's the money?

 

[Palma]

But still 1B? If its to start right away - say 2012 or 2013 and they say it will take 2 years, 1B sounds like too much. Who will oversee this money so in case the Finch LRT is under budget the money can be funneled elsewhere instead of kick backs. Orange anyone?

 

[nfitz]

So PM, where's the money?

There's none left after the federal government announced a few months ago that they are paying 100% ($5 billion) of the cost of replacing an expressway bridge in Montreal.

 

[gabe]

So PM, where's the money?

Not surprised our idiot PM agrees with his fishing buddy.

I prefer when I want to use public transit to go underground, unimpeded ... and when I want to use my car I prefer not to be running in to LRTs and streetcars,” Mr. Harper said after a ground-breaking ceremony for a pedestrian tunnel connecting Toronto’s island airport to the mainland.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...sit-debate-he-prefers-subways/article2364538/

 

[Dan416]

Another Conservative I agree with? What is the world coming to? Since when do NDPers cheap out and Conservatives like to spend more?

I miss the good old Liberal and NDP tax and spend days.

 

[Electrify]

Another Conservative I agree with? What is the world coming to? Since when do NDPers cheap out and Conservatives like to spend more?

I miss the good old Liberal and NDP tax and spend days.

As I've said numerous times, the irony that Conservatives want to spend extra money to put the line underground while the left wants to take the fiscally restrained choice is incredible. It could just as easily be the left wanting transit underground as it provides better service to its users, while the right want LRTs because they could save money by putting it on the surface. While the Sun subscribes to zero thought lemming support of Conservative politicians, the National Post has circled around this concern a few times.

That said, I am getting tired of using finances as the prime bargaining chip. We are a wealthy nation which can afford countless infrastructure projects, and we can afford subways. Maybe not along every avenue, but certainly along Sheppard and other major corridors. If there is one thing we cannot afford, it is the time required for such construction projects.

That said, the reason I'm against putting Sheppard East underground is because it doesn't make planning sense. While we can afford to put the line underground, the extra expense to do so would simply be gravy. Use high floor platforms like Calgary has through its downtown, implement dual-mode metro cars which switch from third rail to overhead wires at Consumers station, railway crossing arms, and voila. A continuous Sheppard metro on the surface which would be just as fast as it is underground (not to mention the time saved from not having to navigate a large station), all for a fraction of the cost!

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Not surprised our idiot PM agrees with his fishing buddy.

PM Stephen Harper is far from an idiot