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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Anyway back on topic.

I remember how the original LRT plan when it was first announced by the Province, had the Finch LRT going all the way from Humber College, east to Don Mills and Sheppard, as well as the Eglinton LRT was slated to go all the way to Pearson. Do we have any confirmation (if we go back to original plan, which looks like we are) that those portions would get funded? I know Viva's BRT route was originally all funded, but then the Province delayed funding which meant that portions of the BRT would be built later, but a complete construction schedule was created.

I'm asking whether there is a firm commitment by the Province for delaying or completing these sections that were originally promised by the Province. Or is it basically, "you took so long that costs have gone up, and we have no money for those sections"?

And we'll have to wait for Metrolinx's funding strategy before these sections see the day of light again?
 
Two Meetings on Thursday, March 8, from 7 to 9 p.m.

More fiscal dishonesty from the Toronto Taxpayer's Coalition?

Pair of Scarborough transit meetings set for Thursday
TTC chair Stintz expected at civic centre meeting
MIKE ADLER
Mar 07, 2012 - 5:40 PM


With two weeks left until Toronto Council settles the Sheppard Avenue transit question, both sides are campaigning furiously in Scarborough, knowing the one favouring a light-rail transit line is winning.

"There's an anger out there," Scarborough-Agincourt Councillor Norm Kelly said Tuesday, March 6, a day after he was replaced on the TTC board by Raymond Cho and Glenn De Baeremaeker, Scarborough councillors now as much in favour of a Sheppard East LRT as he is against it.

On Sunday, the anger Kelly says comes from a feeling that support for a Sheppard Subway extension is getting "short shrift" appeared at the back of a room in the Malvern Public Library.

Eric Miller, a civil engineer and director of the University of Toronto Cities Centre, had spoken there about light-rail on Sheppard, suggesting it was the only practical option and the city-wide debate had been "debased" by calling light-rail vehicles streetcars. "It's not an old-fashioned technology or a second-best solution," Miller told around 100 people at a session called by Respect Scarborough.

The LRT for Sheppard "is not Spadina or St. Clair; this is a higher level service, higher capacity, higher speed," he said, arguing it makes sense for Scarborough and is coupled with another light-rail extension to Sheppard and Markham Road and, eventually, Malvern Town Centre.

The planned route to Morningside Avenue, cancelled by Mayor Rob Ford and revived by a council vote last month, would be "nowhere near capacity at 2031" and even then, extra LRT cars and signal priority could be added, he said.

In contrast, said Miller, a leading member of the council-appointed expert panel that will report on transit options for Sheppard on March 21, a proposed subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre is "well short of any funding."

A third option, building the subway to Victoria Park Avenue and continuing east with light rail, isn't viable either, he said. When it came time to answer questions, though, several were from people demanding to know how surface light-rail and its stations could compete with "the comfortability of the car" or a subway.

"We waited 30 years. We can wait 30 years more," Francis D'Almeida shouted, later leaving the meeting convinced a subway station could be built for the extension every few years and that Sunday's presentations were one-sided.[/B]

"They did not have one negative thing to say about the LRT."

D'Almeida may find what he's seeking at a forum hosted Thursday, March 8, from 7 to 9 p.m. by Toronto Taxpayers Coalition at Scarborough Civic Centre.

The group's president Matthew McGuire is inviting people who signed his group's pro-subway petition and has a line-up he says includes Toronto Sun columnist Sue-Anne Levy, Gordon Chong - who wrote a proposal for the subway extension - former Toronto city manager John Morand, and Karen Stintz, the re-elected TTC chairperson.

At exactly the same time Thursday, Cho will be hosting a "very important transit plan meeting" with TTC staff at Blessed Mother Teresa Catholic Secondary School to provide his residents with facts "on how the council-approved transit plan will affect our communities and address the future transit needs of Scarborough."

Kelly, who sponsored the Taxpayers' meeting and may serve as a moderator, said Cho's been getting flack from pro-subway constituents.

He said he doesn't have faith in the panel's impartiality of the panel, but Miller should have resigned from it after giving his opinions in Malvern. "It's like a juror saying to the audience (in a courtroom) 'he's guilty.'"

Pressed on one of his side's weak spots - the current lack of ability to pay for a subway - Kelly said subway supporters had two weeks to answer the question and predicted a lot of chatting with the mayor, who has already rejected revenue-raising suggestions, including one from Kelly, a City of Toronto sales tax.

Kelly is still willing to sell his idea, saying every major U.S. city has such a tax to help pay for transit and Toronto homeowners won't have to "do all the heavy lifting" because suburbanites commuting to Toronto, young people living at home and tourists will contribute too.

When Ford made an appearance last month at Malvern Town Centre, he was followed by a dozen people with a petition saying Scarborough residents want, need and deserve subways. "Councillor Stintz did not ask us what 'we' wanted for Toronto when she brought back" the Transit City plan for LRTs, it said.

McGuire, whose organization wants a free vote in the legislature to "set a direction" for transit in Toronto, rejects discussion of any new taxes to pay for the extension. "We don't have to pay everything up front," he said when reminded his group professes "prudent fiscal planning, budgeting and spending" yet supports subways which as of now have no confirmed funding scheme.

McGuire said contracting out municipal jobs, more staff layoffs at city hall and getting rid of the city government's Fair Wage policy are part of the answer.

In the audience Sunday, Ron Moeser, a Scarborough councillor regarded as a centrist, said he does not think Sheppard can get a subway extension by 2025.

"I love subways but if we wait 20 years is that fair to the community?" he asked, adding the most likely plan for an extension leaves people east of Midland Avenue "completely out of the picture."

Though Moeser signed a letter last month in support of keeping Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown LRT underground, he said council made a decision to run it above ground in Scarborough. "I have to respect that."

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/l...scarborough-transit-meetings-set-for-thursday
 
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The 850m section on Queens Quay West between Spadina and Bathurst cost $13 million if I'm remembering correctly.
 
The 850m section on Queens Quay West between Spadina and Bathurst cost $13 million if I'm remembering correctly.

Without any land costs, utility relocation costs, rolling stock costs, signal system costs (but they still have signals integrated into the traffic lights), or maintenance facility costs, streetcars sure are cheap!

(I could be wrong, my knowledge of scope on this project is limited)
 
The 850m section on Queens Quay West between Spadina and Bathurst cost $13 million if I'm remembering correctly.

That's in line with the cost to rebuild tracks (including sewer underneath) on most major streets; adjusted for inflation.
 
Toronto has gotten itself into this fix and now is looking for Queen's Park to get itself out.
Ford is correct in that Eglinton should be totally grade separated but the fact that neither side of this debate has even brought up the incredibly logical option of elevating from DM to Kennedy is criminal.
Toronto is the only city on the planet that has a rapid transit line that they want to convert to another rapid transit line for ideological reasons alone. The SRT works well and if they simply upgrade the line a little and brought in the new trains the line would become the effective, reliable, safe, and comfortable line that Vancouver's is. They should simply extend the line down Eglinton and save themselves a cool billion.

Despite all the talk, fighting, politics, and endless bickering there is One and only One real issue here............Torontonians want rapid transit that they are not willing to pay for. For all the touchy feely talk about how Toronto wants to be a true "Transit City", they are not willing to put their money where their industrial size mouths are. No other city on this planet gets 100% of the transit expansion paid for by senior levels of government but Toronto somehow seems to think it should.
Toronto is in this fix and 100% of the blame is Toronto's and if I were McGuinty I would tell Toronto to go to hell and tell them straight out that you only get the $8.2 billion when you come to the table with some of your own money and competive contract that are similar to your peer cities.
 
How is that relevant? ANY LRT line that would be built, would have a portion of it underground at either Finch West Station or Don Mills

Well, no. Finch LRT would just have an underground stop at Finch-Keele with an immediate approach ramp. The tunneling is minimal. Sheppard LRT, OTOH, includes a kilometre worth of tunnel in-between the portal and the underground stop. Finch is a much cheaper project that way.

Note that Sheppard LRT study suggested a subway extension to Consumers Road with the LRT exchange there as an alternative with a minor cost difference. The reason they are not doing that is that it would screw more people over transfer-wise, because Don Mills would have remained the major bus terminal and people would have had to transfer off the LRT trunk for a one stop subway ride to get to the buses.
 
Note that Sheppard LRT study suggested a subway extension to Consumers Road with the LRT exchange there as an alternative with a minor cost difference. The reason they are not doing that is that it would screw more people over transfer-wise, because Don Mills would have remained the major bus terminal and people would have had to transfer off the LRT trunk for a one stop subway ride to get to the buses.
I wouldn't call $120 million a "minor cost difference". They shaved 2-km off the project from Morningside to Meadowvale to save only $100 million.
 
Where are you getting these numbers? As far as I recall, it was about $60-65 million, with another $40 million or so for the Hydro project.

Se.

When I said "The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million" what I meant to say was it cost less than 170 million. And the reason I used 170 million was because i knew it was over 100 million but could not remember for sure how much. And it did not cost 60-65 million as you say. It was originally projected at 48 million, then revised to 65 million and then estimated at 106 million. I am not even sure if that the final figure because that was before the last 300 metres were built and who knows if that part went over
 
When I said "The ROW on St Calir cost less around 170 million" what I meant to say was it cost less than 170 million. And the reason I used 170 million was because i knew it was over 100 million but could not remember for sure how much. And it did not cost 60-65 million as you say. It was originally projected at 48 million, then revised to 65 million and then estimated at 106 million. I am not even sure if that the final figure because that was before the last 300 metres were built and who knows if that part went over

The cost increase above 65 million was due to all the other work that was done at the same time, including rebuilding the road, sidewalk, sewers, and burying the hydro lines. All this work was due to be done, so it might as well have been done at the same time as the streetcar tracks, which also had to be rebuilt as well. Not that Ford seems to understand any of this.
 
The cost increase above 65 million was due to all the other work that was done at the same time, including rebuilding the road, sidewalk, sewers, and burying the hydro lines. All this work was due to be done, so it might as well have been done at the same time as the streetcar tracks, which also had to be rebuilt as well. Not that Ford seems to understand any of this.

Think of it as putting in a new cabinets in your kitchen. The cost of the cabinets cost $X. But then you find there was old galvanized water pipes and clay sewers. That needs replacing, more $Y. The old electrical was actually knob and tube, which also needs replacing, more $Z. The insulation was actually old newspapers, that needs spray foam insulation, more $I. Instead of $X, it becomes $A = $X + $Y + $Z +$I. So instead of $X, it cost $A, but the cabinets still cost $X.

So it was with St. Clair. The cost of the ROW was still $65 million, it was the extra add-ons that increased the price.
 

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