Transit City Plan

[ShonTron]

Scarberian:

But if us TC critics are the only ones to show up, wouldn't that be a good thing (well, except Steve Munro)?

Yeah, the locations really stink. I also note that Sheppard East is being rammed through first, when more worthy routes, like Finch West, should be looked at first.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The RT extension meeting is also being rammed through with Sheppard: "Hurry! Build it all before people find out what's going on!"

 

[Dan416]

It's because Monroe and Giambrone know that if people KNEW that they could have a Danforth extension to SCC over a SRT refit and extension for the same price, they'd take the Danforth extension in 2 seconds flat.

 

[drum118]

According to The Ministry of the Environment at Metrolinx meeting Friday, Metrolinx is exempted from doing EA's.

Unless there is a "true" Environment issue like a bridge over water, all TC EA's as well other cities who have done a official plan showing a transit line, the EA's are rubber stamp with a 6 month time limited now. The transit agent can say what type of line it will be from day one.

I am setting up a meeting with the person who will be looking at the EA's to get a clear view what can done or not be done under the new EA by the public regarding location of routes. Most complaints will have to be dealt at City level.

GO will still have to go the current route at this time as well subways.

TTC was making it quite clear at the Kingston Rd EA meetings this past week, subways extension or new ones are dead unless someone wants to pay for it 100% up front.

 

[unimaginative2]

Though they're trying to fix the laws so they can ram these things through, there's absolutely no way that people are going to allow thousands of lost trees, hundreds of lopped-off front lawns, and the reduction of major arterials to one lane each way. Suburbanites will only stay silent until they figure out what's actually going on.

 

[doady]

Very few (if any) opponents of Transit City are anti-LRT. If anything, it is the supporters of Transit City that are anti-subway... Proponents of TC always use the same argument to belittle all subway construction anywhere, and try to make LRT like the best solution in all situations. LRTs are cheaper, and therefore they must be better.

 

[drum118]

Very few (if any) opponents of Transit City are anti-LRT. If anything, it is the supporters of Transit City that are anti-subway... Proponents of TC always use the same argument to belittle all subway construction anywhere, and try to make LRT like the best solution in all situations. LRTs are cheaper, and therefore they must be better.

I support subways, but don't support the Sherppard line east at this time. Take it over to Downsview, I will support it.

I don't support the Spadina line extension even when Vaughan City Center can be a parking lot for the 400 drivers.

I will support the BD extension to Markham and Sheppard.

I support the Yonge extension without stops between RHC and Clark only after all the station are upgrade to support the extra 20,000 riders at peak south of Eglinton.

I will take the extension of the BD to Cloverdale area before going to Sq One.

I support TC and Subway extension knowing there is only X $ to spend for them.

If you can come up with a plan showing how you can pay not only for the building of TC and subway extension at the same time with no lost of time frame as well operating cost and not loose the cost ratio recovery, I will support your plan.

You cannot have your cake and pie at the same time.

What am I? anti-LRT, anti-subway or both.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't support any transit lines going NE of STC towards Markham & Sheppard...only about 15,000 SRT users even go that way. There simply isn't enough ridership to support *any* form of transit upgrade beyond better buses, meaning such a line would be 100% politics. It's kinda disgusting and I'll be bringing it up at the RT meeting.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I'm back !

Will it be completely great separated like the RT? Will it be automated? Will it have long elevated segments? Will it have subway-style stop spacing? No? Well then it will be nothing like the SRT.

I agree that it might be quite a bit like the Queensway. Have you ever tried to ride that streetcar? I have friends out there, and waits of 40 minutes or more at rush hour are routine. Steve Munro's data show that waits of up to an hour occur on a daily basis in peak periods out to Long Branch. Worth $8 billion?

Ugh, I hate the quality of service in southern Etobicoke. Once in the elapsed time it took one eastbound 501 to reach Islington from Long Branch last summer, a total of 6 route 110s appeared. I totally agree the service is unsuitable. However why must that be a reflection of Transit City? Lakeshore's four lanes. In the Richview and the Golden Mile, Eglinton's six lanes. Sacrificing the two centre lanes still allots uninhibited roadway for vehicles.

I may support Transit City but like you and Scarberian have said, only parts of the full proposal should be implemented. For me, I feel the entire Eglinton corridor works best with subwaylike spacing. Logistically that works out to about 42-43 stations from Pearson to UTSC. Add in a wye for lower Don Mills (via Overlea and the Science Centre) and it brings the grand total to 45. You cut costs already by absorbing the Don Mills and Scarborough-Malvern lines into Eglinton-Crosstown. Jane with exaggerated projections of its actual daily ridership should at best become a BRT line. To me, hyping up Jane Street was to make Transit City not appear so east-centric, much the way we're now stuck with Kipling Stn in a bad location due to counter-balancing Kennedy.

Here's the wonderful logical fallacy. Transit City or Sheppard+YUS. First of all, nobody has ever suggested jettisoning all the Transit City routes. The only time that comes up is when streetcar fans are trying to create a straw man that's easy to disagree with. My personal favourite is how you try to suggest that the YUS extensions somehow impact on Transit City; they're both funded completely separately by MoveOntario 2020.

The general public doesn't know that. Everyone will assume it's a case of have/have-nots; priviledged areas/everywhere else. According to your estimates, a Sheppard subway extension will cost more than a LRT line all the way to Meadowvale. If so, it'll take a chunk out of the Transit City budget reserved for other lines to complete a mere 8 kms of short-distance subway. Furthermore you seem to think we're happy with just streetcars serving these corridors.

Eglinton in particular, I think a lot of us want to see built as a bona fide subway line from day one. In fact I'm willing to wager, TC fans wouldn't mind seeing four-fifths of the TC budget invested in ensuring that there's a true crosstown subway. Jane and Don Mills BRT and a 'Malvern' tripper would satisfy those corridors given there proximity to other lines. Lakeshore West largely already exists sans a ROW from Roncesvalles to Union, which shouldn't cost more than a few hundred million. Finch West is the only other major proposal that might benefit from a LRT ROW full length.

Note that all these figures are based on the TTC's wildly inflated construction costs. Note that Vancouver built over 18km of real rapid transit, mostly underground, for a $1.5 billion cost to government.

It's called political posturing and the sTTingy C does it a lot. Oh to live in a part of the country where rapid transit is actually being done on a large scale (Montreal-Laval, Vancouver, Calgary).

The bit between Yonge and Downsview would be nice, but the eastern extension would obviously serve vastly more people and provide access (There's that magic word again!) to a much larger area.

The gap between the two legs of YUS is a greater commuting obstacle than the gap between Sheppard and the SRT though. This is why I fight so hard for Eglinton, it's not the destination that's important, it's how you get there- and straight across the city to me will always appear faster than a circuitous sojourn down SRT-BD that only goes as far as McCowan-Kipling.

I, perhaps the strongest opponent of much of the Transfer City plan, listed at least 15 arterial corridors that would be better than Morningside or Sheppard East had the city really been serious about bringing appropriate transit to appropriate parts of the city. The intersection of Morningside & Sheppard (not Malvern!) gets two lines before Lawrence or Kipling or Dufferin? WTF? Bathurst, Wilson, Warden, Kingston, McCowan, the portlands...the list of suitable places for streetcars/LRT is quite long.

I don't get the fixation on Malvern, are you insinuating it's the kryptonite to our whole way of thinking? How many times have I said I support TC on Morningside only as far as Ellesmere (to Centennial College and University of Toronto)? The rest of those corridors you've highlighted are good candidates but I fear they'll demand too much need for keeping all their local stops (Lawrence East in particular is highly residential such that very stop counts). Kingston Rd though not officially a member of the "T-Ceanic 6" , is also approved for streetcars it's entire length up to West Hill.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The gap between the two legs of YUS is a greater commuting obstacle than the gap between Sheppard and the SRT though.

The only thing that matters is what will help move more people faster, and an eastern extension will move more people faster. Completing it in both directions is the optimal solution and a prerequisite for success for the Spadina extension.

 

[unimaginative2]

I had a pretty specific plan for subways and LRT that comes within the $8 billion Transit City budget a few posts ago. I think that should satisfy your request. We have more-or-less the same opinions, I think, in that we both believe that subways are appropriate for some routes while proper LRT is reasonable for others.

I can't fathom how anybody could ever oppose the fully-funded Spadina extension to Steeles, though I completely understand opposition to the two stops up to VCC. For better or worse, because of our Toronto city government, it's the only reason that the entire line is getting built: York Region's advocacy. Moreover, I have high hopes for the 407 Transitway and I think that it has a lot of potential as a GO-ALRT type of service. It's worth an interchange stop, though not one inexplicably costing $80 million. Once you're up there, you may as well go to VCC which could be developed as a transit friendly neighbourhood around the subway station hub. If there's anything Vaughan is good at, it's development, and there's no reason why they wouldn't get a lot of people up there once the subway's built. I believe that they should take advantage of the undeveloped nature of the area to build much of the route on an elevated alignment, making it much less expensive than the tunnelled subway that they're proposing.

I fiercely support extending the BD line to STC and replacing the unreliable RT and its inconvenient interchange, but I think other modes are more than capable of handling the loads from there. There just simply isn't much at Markham and Sheppard, certainly not enough to justify a dedicated subway extension. Centennial College students would much rather have a bus on their building's doorstep than an RT stop a sketchy ten minute walk away through a dark forest. Express buses and LRT are much more suited to serving the rest of North and East Scarborough from the STC hub. Malvern is best served by a Nielson Express route using shoulder bus lanes on the 401, and that approach might work well for UTSC as well. McCowan is a great route for LRT. This would give riders from all over Scarborough a much faster ride to their two major destinations: STC and Downtown. The RT refurbishment and extension would keep the same inconvenient trip to downtown, and add an extra transfer for some to get to STC. The Transit City plan would mind-bogglingly require someone from STC going to North York Centre to take a Brimley bus north to Sheppard, then transfer to the Sheppard streetcar, and then transfer again to the subway. Needless to say, most people would rather have the existing Rocket than that.

To be completely honest, I just don't understand why people think Markham and Sheppard is such a great spot for a rapid transit extension. I just don't see it. What's there that's so special as to merit a subway extension? Sheppard East, on the other hand, is lined with massive amounts of development, both existing and proposed, and is a short bus ride away from lots more. After doing some looking, I think that it should be possible to build the whole route east of Kennedy above grade, taking advantage of the RT corridor that would be abandoned in favour of a BD subway extension.

I completely agree that Yonge needs to be relieved in order to accommodate additional riders from the extension. Automated operation of trains and a Downtown Relief Line would be ideal and more than sufficient.

The BD extension to East Mall is an easy win that the TTC decided to kill with a baffling claim that continuing along the rail corridor that they already use from Islington to Kipling is somehow impossible and instead tunnelling is required. The developer of the mall property is offering to donate free land for a station, so the extension shouldn't cost more than a hundred million dollars. That's a no brainer. Beyond there, however, I think Mississauga is much better served by urban frequencies in the Milton GO corridor (at least every 20 minutes or better, all day). I believe the line should be diverted to the north in order to serve Mississauga City Centre, the city's major transit hub and largest trip generator. People could transfer from this line to the subway at Kipling or Dundas West if they aren't going downtown, while downtown-bound passengers would enjoy an express ride.

You're committing a logical fallacy when you claim that transit advocates should know how to pay for all the projects they advocate. I'm not the Minister of Finance and neither are you (as far as I know!). It's not our job to somehow balance the province's books. Health care advocates don't have to show what program they'd cut in order to fund a new hospital. If they think we need a new hospital, they say we need a new hospital. It's not their job to figure out how to pay for it. I find that transit advocates tend to pick a number for the absolute maximum that "we" can afford that happens to coincide with the cost of their pet project.

That being said, the plan I've mentioned comes in at about the same amount as Transit City's $8 billion, so we know absolutely that we can afford it. In case you missed it, here it is again, with generously inflated TTC costing:

• Finch West and Jane LRTs ($1 billion)
• Finish Sheppard East ($1.5 billion)
• Eglinton LRT (~$3 billion)
• Downtown Relief Line - Dundas West to Pape (~$2.5 billion)

Additional projects funded but not within the Transit City envelope:

• Replace RT with subway to STC (Roughly same cost as planned RT refurbishment and extension)
• Yonge Extension
• Spadina Extension
• Major GO improvements including S-Bahn-style service on all lines
• Waterfront West and Port Lands LRT

 

[Panzerfaust]

I think that Transit City, even if built as a 510 style operation, could work. However, imperative to this is FULL SIGNAL PRIORITY. No matter how frequent the stops, with the frequency of service we are expecting to see stop lights will be the single biggest cause of bunching, especially if farside stops are used. Even if there are no stops eliminated from the current routes, traffic signal priority will at least keep service evenly spaced most of the time.

I'm not saying all the TC lines are right, just that if they insist on building it this way, they have to do it correctly.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What Transit Signal Priority?

In theory, only the 509 Harbourfront seems to have transit priority at the traffic signals. As a CLRV comes up before a traffic light, the traffic light allows it priority to proceed. This is not the case on the other semi-private-right-of-ways.
When the Queensway between the Humber and Roncesvalles was opened to traffic in 1957, the platforms were located on the near-side of the intersections. When the PCCs came up to the platform, they stopped for passengers, and only then waited for a green signal to proceed. Sometimes they were lucky and the lights changed as they closed their doors.
With the rebuild in 2007, the platforms were repositioned on the far-side of the intersections. Now the ALRV's come up to the intersection and wait for a green signal to proceed. And waits again for the left turning vehicles to do their turn. Only then do they cross the intersection to the platform and then stop again, this time for passengers. That is two (2) full stops. Having to do two stops slows down service on the 501/508. Only with luck do the ALRV's get a green light as they come up to an intersection.
We need true transit signal priority. We shouldn't have to genuflect, crawl on knees, and kiss the transportation department ring.
Get it done right on the Queensway right-of-way first. Then do the same with the Spadina and St. Clair West right-of-ways. Once the bugs have been worked out with transit priority, getting them on the Transit City lines should be easier. With GPS and the proper software, we maybe able to allow red or green lights to help a little with control the herding aspects. But let us get true transit signal priority, now.

 

[CharmAlarm]

I went to the Metrolinx public board meeting on Friday and one of the speakers - from the Ministry of Public Infrastructure Renewal - told the Board that construction is to start in 2009 on three priority projects - Finch West, Sheppard East and something about York/VIVA (didn't catch the specifics).

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Hopefully this will end everyone's bitching about subway this, light rail that...

Media Advisory: LOVAT Inc. and TTC Announce Purchase of Tunnel Boring Machine from Canada Line Consortium
'Transit City is now Subway City' says TTC Chair
TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - April 1, 2008) -

What: Delivery of LOVAT Inc.'s Tunnel Boring Machine to Toronto for Commencement of Continuous Subway Construction Program ("Subway City")

When: Tuesday, April 1, 2008

Where: Downsview Subway Station (1035 Sheppard Avenue West, at William R. Allen Road)

Who will speak: Rt. Hon. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Premier Dalton McGuinty, Mayor David Miller (Toronto), Mayor Linda Jackson (Vaughan), Mayor Hazel McCallion (Mississauga), Mayor Dave Barrow (Richmond Hill), Rt. Hon. Minister Lawrence Cannon (Ministry of Transport)

The Toronto Transit Commission and Metrolinx will be announcing today the purchase and delivery of the Tunnel Boring Machine (TBM) from the Canada Line Consortium, following their completion of tunnel construction as part of the Canada Line in Vancouver on March 14, 2008. This purchase has allowed the TTC and Metrolinx to change from previous plans for Light Rail Transit in Toronto ("Transit City") to complete subway construction ("Subway City").

"This opportunity only comes once in a lifetime, and it was great timing that Vancouver finished their tunnel construction just as we are ramping up planning for Transit City," says TTC Chair Adam Giambroney, "Transit City is now Subway City!"

The Transit City plan called for the construction of seven new light rail transit lines to span across the City of Toronto. The plan will now be upgraded to be solely subway construction, including lines into Mississauga, Vaughan, and Richmond Hill. Construction is to begin by 2009, with completion of this ambitious subway expansion program by 2020.

For detailed media backgrounders on the LOVAT Inc. TBM, please visit: http://www.lovat.com/

For detailed media backgrounders on the TTC Subway City Plan, please visit: http://www.ttc.ca