Transit City Plan

[scarberiankhatru]

^ Those are the kind of spacings that should be the bare minimum for real rapid transit. 800m-1km would still mean virtually everyone is only a few minutes walk away from a station.

500 metres is not subway spacing, particularly when the average suburban bus route already has a practical stop spacing of 400m. There's a few subway stations downtown that are that close together but the platforms would be dangerously overwhelmed if the stops were reduced, and suburban trips would be noticeably slowed by having that many stops. 500m spacing would mean 20 underground stations on the Eglinton line. It'll probably also translate into 400m stop spacing in Scarborough since arterials are 800m apart. Destroying the long-distance potential of these lines is exactly what we should not be doing.

 

[Panzerfaust]

Somehow I think 500 metres won't be a hard and fast rule. For example, Kennedy Station to Midland is almost 600 metres and there is nothing of consequence in between the two. Brimley/Danforth to McCowan is 650-800 metres. In the suburbs, the stop spacing will almost surely be longer due to things like this.

Also, note that this is not much less than spacing on the BD. For example: Broadview to Chester - 580 metres. Chester to Pape - 590 metres. Pape to Donlands - 650 metres. Donlands to Greenwood - 420 metres! Greenwood to Coxwell - 750 metres.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Spacing in Scarborough will surely be shorter than 800m because the arterial roads are 800m apart. They could have a stop at Birchmount and another at Kennedy station but skipping Kennedy Road itself goes against the Transit City principles. I'm sure that stops won't go where they need to go, they'll go wherever ideology dictates they go, or wherever people demand that their local stop not be removed.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I was bringing up exceptional circumstances, not standard circumstances. However, I think there will be a lot of those exceptional circumstances. For example, look at Eglinton east of VP. It's mostly big box development and industry. Thus, I could see stops at Victoria Park, Pharmacy, Warden, Birchmount, and possibly Ionview, then Kennedy Station.

Look at Morningside north of Kennedy. The entire residential area from Kingston to Morningside Park can be covered by a single stop at Beath Street, and that's even less than 500 metres from Kingston Road proper. Then after that, it's over a kilometre until Ellesmere and anything that isn't just green space. I suppose a diversion to UTSC is justified as well, but that's outside the scope of what I'm saying right now.

I suppose what I'm trying to get across is 500 metres as a guideline might seem excessive, but there are a lot of places where it will turn out to be just that: a guideline.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And there's lots of places where ~500m will be treated as gospel, especially in the context of what Transit City considers a major trip generator. The main point here is that no matter how much they spin the Transit City lines as revolutionary, they're treating them as local transit, not rapid transit.

 

[Voltz]

And there's lots of places where ~500m will be treated as gospel, especially in the context of what Transit City considers a major trip generator. The main point here is that no matter how much they spin the Transit City lines as revolutionary, they're treating them as local transit, not rapid transit.

I have sincere doubts that they will just through in a stop every 500m meters or so, especially on the underground section of eglinton where I would guess 12 stations max. Don’t worry there, the sky is not falling

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No, they're not going to measure out 500m segments and arbitrarily add stops there...that's obviously not what I meant. They will add mid-block stops in Scarborough because 800m will be seen as "too far." They'll add stops at Rumsey and Brentcliffe otherwise Laird will be "too far" from other stops.


Have there been any announcements about what they're going to do with bus routes like Leslie or Lawrence East? Will they continue to run along Eglinton from Eglinton station or will they dump people off at the streetcar? Leslie & Eglinton is a stop that's begging to be skipped, but if the Leslie/Lawrence buses terminate there, an expensive station will be needed.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I've always assumed that the underground section will have longer stop spacing, with a stub Eglinton bus remaining on the surface, similar to Sheppard. I don't see the TTC spending all the money to make an underground line with that many stops.

I don't think they're far enough into the planning process to figure out how bus routes will be effected. I would assume they would terminate at the LRT though.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I've always assumed that the underground section will have longer stop spacing, with a stub Eglinton bus remaining on the surface, similar to Sheppard. I don't see the TTC spending all the money to make an underground line with that many stops.

I don't think they're far enough into the planning process to figure out how bus routes will be effected. I would assume they would terminate at the LRT though.

Since the city never had any intention of paying for any of Transit City, I'm sure everything will be planned to be as gold-plated as possible, just like the Spadina extension.

Figuring out what will happen to bus routes is a very basic step that must have already been taken (and if they haven't bothered, the already dubious ridership estimates are even more flawed). But given that this is not a plan for a complete network, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Voltz]

Something that I have not seen the TTC talk about yet is that Morningside Ave, for about 500m north of Kingston Rd, is a narrow 4-lane street with traffic congestion and homes close by on either side. I can't see any room for a new LRT ROW to be fit in here. They might have to go underground on Kingston rd just before Morningside until the line reaches the ravine, where a new bridge would be needed weather or not the line diverts to UTSC.

I'd imagine that a shallow Cut and Cover trench could be built here, should be relatively inexpensive.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Cut and cover, tunnel, buy the houses, rebuild the bridge...they'll just pick the most expensive option. The hundreds or maybe even the thousand people that will take the Morningside line north to UTSC deserve only the best! Oh, and I'm totally serious about the numbers I just used.

 

[urbanfan89]

Hopefully Metrolinx will do more than rubberstamp the current TC routes. It's the urban planning equivalent of a twenty page essay written overnight.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

Have there been any announcements about what they're going to do with bus routes like Leslie or Lawrence East? Will they continue to run along Eglinton from Eglinton station or will they dump people off at the streetcar? Leslie & Eglinton is a stop that's begging to be skipped, but if the Leslie/Lawrence buses terminate there, an expensive station will be needed.

They can keep running Lawrence East buses from Eglinton Stn. That will be local service parallel to the underground LRT, hence no separate stub bus will be needed east of Yonge.

West of Yonge, they can retain 32C Eglinton - Treteway bus for the same purpose.

 

[JasonParis]

Really? I would want the 54 Lawrence to terminate at Eglinton/Leslie as it is on Eglinton where the route generally gets bogged-down and falls behind schedule.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'd have commented more at the meeting about the retardedness of not extending the Sheppard subway, but, apparently, the only feedback they were really looking for was related to stop locations or the irrational concerns of local NIMBYs.