Transit City Plan

[RedRocket191]

One municipality, however, with a population of excess of 450,000, does not have a politican accountable to them at the GTTA.

I'd rather have some professionals mixed in with a few pols. Roger Anderson should not be sitting on a transit body, while others, like Bill Fisch, aren't bad.

I will say that the chair is awesome.

 

[nfitz]

Good point, it's taken what? 5 years? And finally there's a walkway built between Oriole and GO?

Passengers are still directed to walk along Leslie Street (hope they have a token, or they'll have to take the long route!).

I'm not sure if anything is being constructed with the new underpass being constructed under the tracks to connect Glenview Drive to Old Leslie Street. I'm not sure there is even place left for a path. But it's hard to tell standing on the top of the Ikea parking lot - and I've never seen any discussion - or anything on the Internet on that project - presumably part of the redevelopment of the Canadian Tire lands. Hmm, now I think about it, there should be a thread here somewhere ...

 

[unimaginative2]

Or, more positively, GO ALRT?

Steve Munro hates GO ALRT because he sees it as part of the conspiracy against streetcars.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Steve Munro hates GO ALRT because he sees it as part of the conspiracy against streetcars.

I've found a rare picture showing the chairman of GO transit strangling Steve Munro in 1984:

 

[ShonTron]

I see why unimaginative has an issue with Steve Munro, but I doubt he hates GO-ALRT because it threatens streetcars, though I see something like that though in regards to the SRT/BD Extension/Sheppard East. I also don't think he's the reason (or even the primary reason) why we're stuck with the half-good, half-poor Transit/Transfer City.

You sometimes sound like a conspiracy theorist!

Hilarious, Hipster Duck!

 

[unimaginative2]

I'm just going by his blog post! I'm talking about the original GO ALRT. He's happy that it failed because it used the ICTS technology. He says, obviously, that he supports a regional approach to transit, but he takes the David Jeanes approach of "Better nothing at all if it's not my choice of technology."

 

[DENTROBATE54]

This set of sentences is extremely amusing...they're just totally wrong.

So the DRL is not at the fringes of downtown?...right !

Unimaginative I get what you're saying, DRL serves the periphery well, I just can't help but think a new Parkdale Stn is just as irrelevant to someone needing Queen/Bathurst as Osgoode/Queen Stns are. A ring line incoporating 'old' and 'new' downtowns might not help suburbanites get there, but certainly improves the quality of their commute once there. What's the point of subways that aren't within walking distance of major nodes, apart from a handful like Skydome, St Lawrence, Distillery? DRL is a dated notion largely (the focal point of Network 2011 proposed in the 1980s). We can learn from it and adapt, without us treating it like it's finite canonical scripture set in stone. From now on I'll consider DRL, D'Earl !

 

[nfitz]

How was GO ALRT a threat for streetcars? It was very heavy rail. Essentially it was an earlier combination of the current SuperGo proposal, and the late 1980s dedicated track construction from Pickering east. The reason it was flawed, is that the government were attempting to invent their own technology, rather than use off-the-shelf equipment. A quarter-century later, that won't be a problem - and hopefully we'll end up with something akin to the Deux Montagnes line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So the DRL is not at the fringes of downtown?...right !

No, it's not at the fringes of downtown, unless you consider the CBD "fringe."

Anyway, no one ever said the DRL would be the only thing we'll ever need, just as, for example, a Queen line wouldn't do very much for College or everything at and south of Front.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Passengers are still directed to walk along Leslie Street (hope they have a token, or they'll have to take the long route!).

I'm not sure if anything is being constructed with the new underpass being constructed under the tracks to connect Glenview Drive to Old Leslie Street. I'm not sure there is even place left for a path. But it's hard to tell standing on the top of the Ikea parking lot - and I've never seen any discussion - or anything on the Internet on that project - presumably part of the redevelopment of the Canadian Tire lands. Hmm, now I think about it, there should be a thread here somewhere ...

Look up Park Place... but that's been pretty quiet for awhile.

As for Oriole Station, the GO website currently says construction and platform expansion there will be complete for June 2008. But they say nothing about whether or not that walkway will be commissioned.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

No, it's not at the fringes of downtown, unless you consider the CBD "fringe." Anyway, no one ever said the DRL would be the only thing we'll ever need, just as, for example, a Queen line wouldn't do very much for College or everything at and south of Front.

That is why I'm in favor of not only a subway on the rail corridor/'new' downtown through the waterfront area, but within the existing build-up area as well. A line that doesn't just zip up the rail corridors and vanishes, one that encircles the entire downtown core. Consider routes like Queen/King and the rail corridor as archetypes for the general path of the line, with BD level proximity between stops. That way the core would transition from a state of reliable subways and pish-posh surface streetcars to one where every major development/node/trip-generator is within five mins walk of a subway. If DRL is that vital, it could be interlined with a new downtown line just as easily as it could co-align with Eglinton.

Since I rarely go through the area, can someone explain the demand for a Oriole/Leslie connection? I rode the RH train a few months ago and saw a complex network of parking and other facilities underneath the 401, which I infer as the relationship between highway and railway is vital to commuters. It's really poor planning on the TTC's part to make an useless stop at Bessarion yet jeopardize the synergy of the GO network through lack of an alignment diversion to make this link. If the distance between Oriole and Leslie Stns is minimal (for instance the distance between Danforth and Main St Stns) couldn't a long but direct accessible tunnel work?

 

[unimaginative2]

That is why I'm in favor of not only a subway on the rail corridor/'new' downtown through the waterfront area, but within the existing build-up area as well. A line that doesn't just zip up the rail corridors and vanishes, one that encircles the entire downtown core. Consider routes like Queen/King and the rail corridor as archetypes for the general path of the line, with BD level proximity between stops. That way the core would transition from a state of reliable subways and pish-posh surface streetcars to one where every major development/node/trip-generator is within five mins walk of a subway. If DRL is that vital, it could be interlined with a new downtown line just as easily as it could co-align with Eglinton.

Yes, obviously more subways are better, and in a world of truly unlimited funds, it'd be great to have them running all over downtown. Unfortunately, there are other parts of thet the GTA which need rapid transit as well, and while a Paris-style network would be great downtown, a DRL is a great way to serve current and emerging high-density parts of downtown. It strings together all the areas where the city wants to encourage growth, and also provides much-needed relief to the Yonge-University loop.

Your idea, while I'm not exactly clear on the specifics, appears to put a lot of subways through areas which are designated for stable neighbourhoods. The last thing the city would want to do is plunk a subway station down on a part of Queen that they're trying to preserve as a low-rise community.

I'm curious. You don't like the DRL because stops are too infrequent. Where would you put more stops? Also, have you read up on the West Don Lands and East Bayfront yet?

Since I rarely go through the area, can someone explain the demand for a Oriole/Leslie connection? I rode the RH train a few months ago and saw a complex network of parking and other facilities underneath the 401, which I infer as the relationship between highway and railway is vital to commuters. It's really poor planning on the TTC's part to make an useless stop at Bessarion yet jeopardize the synergy of the GO network through lack of an alignment diversion to make this link. If the distance between Oriole and Leslie Stns is minimal (for instance the distance between Danforth and Main St Stns) couldn't a long but direct accessible tunnel work?

Dentrobate, you just move Oriole station. It should have been done in time for the subway opening.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That is why I'm in favor of not only a subway on the rail corridor/'new' downtown through the waterfront area, but within the existing build-up area as well. If DRL is that vital, it could be interlined with a new downtown line just as easily as it could co-align with Eglinton.

For the umpteenth time, *no one* is saying that the DRL will the only and the last transit built downtown. It does run through built-up areas...what are all those skyscrapers next to Union station if not built-up? And how would a "co-aligned" Eglinton line serve skyscrapers next to Union station?

It's really poor planning on the TTC's part to make an useless stop at Bessarion yet jeopardize the synergy of the GO network through lack of an alignment diversion to make this link.

So the Sheppard line should have diverted off Sheppard to meet the GO line at the 401?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Yes, obviously more subways are better, and in a world of truly unlimited funds, it'd be great to have them running all over downtown. Unfortunately, there are other parts of thet the GTA which need rapid transit as well, and while a Paris-style network would be great downtown, a DRL is a great way to serve current and emerging high-density parts of downtown. It strings together all the areas where the city wants to encourage growth, and also provides much-needed relief to the Yonge-University loop.

Your idea, while I'm not exactly clear on the specifics, appears to put a lot of subways through areas which are designated for stable neighbourhoods. The last thing the city would want to do is plunk a subway station down on a part of Queen that they're trying to preserve as a low-rise community.

I'm curious. You don't like the DRL because stops are too infrequent. Where would you put more stops? Also, have you read up on the West Don Lands and East Bayfront yet?

Dentrobate, you just move Oriole station. It should have been done in time for the subway opening.

Vast swaths of BD, YUS, SRT remain relatively unchanged and unaffected by subway expansion. Whatever change there is occurs at such a gradual pace the community hardly flinches when it does.

DRL should be run like the BD line, with stations every 450-700m. A compromise line I suppose would be running it along Queen Street between Dufferin and Broadview, however what I was considering was keeping the waterfront section in addition to Queen/King (possibly Dundas) in a continuous loop that wouldn't leave the downtown core. Feeder BRT lines along Dundas/Jane and Broadview/Overlea/Don Mills in effect save $$ for not having to build either Transit City nor DRL along those corridors, with relatively the same level of service as high-order rapid transit vehicles and dedicated rights-of-way.

I did research East Bayfront and West Don Lands and I'd implement far better service than what's detailed in Network 2011. Specifically for the central waterfront stops would exist at:

Shaw/King- King West Village

Strachan/Lakeshore (note I avoid traditional conceptions of where an Exhibition stop should go, since this is the best access both for the Main Entrance-Prince's Gate and East Entrance of Ontario Place [alot of Exhibition riders would likely also want OP]),

Fort York (between Queens Quay and Front). This is done specifically for new condo community, Metronome (uc) and future rapid service to the Toronto Islands. In absence of a land bridge, an underground monorail could run between this stn. and the airport.

Spadina unlikely will get its own stop, but John certainly will. This is the most viable of all waterfront stops with Skydome, CN Tower, Convention Centre and within walking distance of Metro Hall, Roy Thompson, Royal Alexandra, Princess of Wales, CBC.

Union/CBD

St Lawrence Market

King East- for Geogre Brown College, Design Strip, Toronto Star

Distillery- bordered by Trinity, Mill, Front and Cherry

Commissioners/Don Roadway-Port of Toronto, Rochester Ferry

Studio District-Carlaw/Lakeshore vincinity

Leslieville-Leslie/Lakeshore

Queen East/Coxwell-gateway for Toronto Beaches area, Kingston tripper.

See if DRL is done, alot of those stops would not be possible. My idea from there would be to complete the loop via 'old' downtown arteries, mirroring Queen proposals but not exactly replicating it.

As for Oriole/Leslie-Sheppard, this reminds of another thread where either Cooksville or Erindale would be relocated for the sake of getting a direct MCC station on the Milton line. Given how infrequent GO runs in that corridor, a shuttle service could easily be timed to meet trains and take riders to the subway.

And how would a "co-aligned" Eglinton line serve skyscrapers next to Union station?

All I'm saying is Eglinton COULD just run in a straight line and be relatively close to but not accessible to nearby nodes. BUT given that there's zero density between Leslie and Don Mills and Don Mills and Swift, why not take a short detour through Overlea-Don Mills? Like you said many Eglinton riders will want to transfer at Don Mills, this saves them the interchange hassles. For Don Mills riders it's just Leslie, Laird, Bayview, Mt Pleasant... then bamm, right in the action of Yonge-Eglinton and a more direct route to downtown. Why am I the only one to see that conventional wisdom? TC makes no mention of extending past BD yet so I'll believe DRL is a sure thing when I see it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Your "co-alignment" route makes no sense...the Eglinton line will dip down to Thorncliffe because there's "zero density" around Don Mills? Transit lines aren't made better by zig-zagging around bringing "access" to random spots on a map, they're made worse.

Of course the DRL isn't a sure thing - it's not involved with Transfer City at all...it was proposed and never built decades ago but some of us think it should be brought back to the table. Transfer City has a missing link south of Bloor, but who knows what, precisely, could happen there. We do know that what is won't be is a useful, transferless subway line.