Transit City Plan

[MisterF]

I find it interesting that per capita, Canada has more cars than the US. I would have thought it to be the other way around since Canada has a more transit culture than the US does. I guess it could be due to the fact that US has more larger cities(1M+), where as Canada only really has 6 (Van, Tor, Mtl, Ott, Cal, Edm)

Per capita, Canada has more cities with a million people than the United States, even if you ignore that American metro areas are more generously defined than Canadian ones.

 

[Dan416]

Seems like this Stintz woman is the only one on city council who can think rationally.

Told of Mr. Giambrone’s comment that we can’t afford to build a subway on Eglinton, Ms. Stintz says, “If we had taken that approach in 1950 with the Yonge line, we would not be the city we are today.”

Agree with her 110% on this.

 

[junctionist]

I doubt there was any choice but to go with a subway on Yonge. It was proposed when the streetcars were jammed full of people and Toronto was beginning an unprecedented population boom. The demand isn't nearly as high on Eglinton and the population isn't rising very quickly. What were they going to do on Yonge? Turn it into a transit mall and run two lanes of streetcars in both directions ? Or perhaps an LRT with limited tunneling would be better, with streetcars emerging just past Eglinton? Neither option would have been taken seriously.

Yet I admire her enthusiasm and support for real rapid transit, the kind which can get you to a destination in a similar time to driving when the roads are packed. Subway expansion should be a question on the 2010 ballot.

 

[rbt]

Yet I admire her enthusiasm and support for real rapid transit, ...

Her enthusiasm wanes when it is not in her ward.

Note her absence when the Scarborough subway extension was still a feasible idea as an SRT replacement.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Her enthusiasm wanes when it is not in her ward.

Note her absence when the Scarborough subway extension was still a feasible idea as an SRT replacement.

That's still better than Scarborough councillors, whose enthusiasm waned in their own wards.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's still better than Scarborough councillors, whose enthusiasm waned in their own wards.

+1 Hear hear.

My own councillor, Raymond Cho was rated one of the worst in the city. The sad part is, that the RT extension will ensure he stays employed for at least another decade or more. He has no clue about transit issues at all. His staff is just as clueless as well.

I still can't believe how quickly these councillors folded on the demand for HRT to Scarborough Town Centre. It makes me believe none of them ever ride the RT or they'd understand the issues more easily.

 

[jks]

+1 Hear hear.

My own councillor, Raymond Cho was rated one of the worst in the city. The sad part is, that the RT extension will ensure he stays employed for at least another decade or more. He has no clue about transit issues at all. His staff is just as clueless as well.

I still can't believe how quickly these councillors folded on the demand for HRT to Scarborough Town Centre. It makes me believe none of them ever ride the RT or they'd understand the issues more easily.

Of course!! Councilors aren't gonna bother with transit when they are paid more than enough to own three cars, and get to work quicker that way. I guess some downtown and maybe some NY councilors take transit but other than that, NO WAY!!

 

[Hipster Duck]

Ms. Stintz calls the TTC parochial.

The delay in building the subway to York and Vaughan, “is a clear example of how the city is not buying into the Metrolinx vision of a regional transportation system,” she says. “They don’t care whether it gets built or not.”

Told of Mr. Giambrone’s comment that we can’t afford to build a subway on Eglinton, Ms. Stintz says, “If we had taken that approach in 1950 with the Yonge line, we would not be the city we are today.”

One vote for Karen Stintz coming right up.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...9/01/09/how-toronto-went-cold-on-subways.aspx

Ms. Stintz calls the TTC parochial. The TTC fears that if it provides regional mass transit — as promoted by Metrolinx, the province’s regional transportation agency for the GTA — Toronto will have to cede some control of its transit system.

The delay in building the subway to York and Vaughan, “is a clear example of how the city is not buying into the Metrolinx vision of a regional transportation system,” she says. “They don’t care whether it gets built or not.”

Thanks for posting the article. I think I say these things every time I make a post on this board, constantly using the word "parochial." TTC's mandate is for Toronto and they don't care about anything else, including what affects riders who start their trip outside the city.

The design and implementation of Transit City shows how little they care about moving people across borders and continues to uphold borders which have no meaning beyond where taxes go.

Nowhere in the GTA is a sense of "The Big Picture" more lacking than at the Toronto Transit Commission, IMHO. I'll give them some pity since they've just been scraping by since the Harris years but that excuse only gets them so far when it comes to obviously-overdue subway extensions. And that applies to those in process (Yonge/Spadina) and those needed in 416 (completing Sheppard/DRL).

 

[allabootmatt]

...true, but can you blame them? The TTC gets nearly all of its funding from Toronto residents, whether through their property taxes or their fares. Until that changes, I don't blame them for being skeptical of gold-plated subways to nowhere in the 905, while they have to go cap in hand to replace, say, the streetcar fleet.

But there's no excuse for the lack of in-416 vision.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

...true, but can you blame them? The TTC gets nearly all of its funding from Toronto residents, whether through their property taxes or their fares. Until that changes, I don't blame them for being skeptical of gold-plated subways to nowhere in the 905, while they have to go cap in hand to replace, say, the streetcar fleet.

But there's no excuse for the lack of in-416 vision.

The funding thing is an old debate which has been discussed here a bit already. Property taxes are not the primary source of TTC funding and 905ers put plenty into the farebox. Somewhere else on these boards someone wrote a more thorough and eloquent debunking of the tax-subsidizing argument.

EDIT - I went out and found Disparishun's post from last month...

TTC funding derives from three sources: 69% fares, 24% property taxes, and 7% provincial gas tax.

The Toronto municipality's property taxes revenues are 60% residential (including multiresidential), 36% commercial, and 4% industrial (2008 budget summary). [snip]

So, when you say that 416 taxpayers are subsidizing the TTC and, if 905ers want to use it they should subsidize it to, then -- even accepting the implicit, and ludicrous, argument that it is not of benefit to 416 residential taxpayers that their municipality attract workers and shoppers from adjacent municipalities -- what you really mean is that 416 taxpayers are subsidizing about 15% of the TTC's costs through property taxes.

I don't blame TTC for focusing on Toronto first but commuting patterns dictate they understand where their riders are coming from and going to and
plan accordingly.

If you live south of Eglinton it may seem otherwise but neither subway line is going nowhere - and the planning for each is at least as justified as the ad hoc TC plan. The Yonge line, in particular, strikes just about everyone except David Miller and Adam Giambrone, as a no-brainer. There is nothing that happens at Finch or Steeles that justifies ending the line there, except for the tax-paying thing.

All it shows, really, is why we needed Metrolinx in the first place. We now have a "a regional transit vision," and if TTC does not want to participate in it Metrolinx should essentially assume some of their power.

It's a last resort but TTC holds too much sway to not back provincially-supported subways, region-wide fare integration or any other crucial initiative that doesn't gel with their parochial plans. It makes no more sense than allowing them to design their own highways regardless of whether they hook up with the 400-series or other regional roads.

 

[RedRocket191]

All it shows, really, is why we needed Metrolinx in the first place. We now have a "a regional transit vision," and if TTC does not want to participate in it Metrolinx should essentially assume some of their power.

It's a last resort but TTC holds too much sway to not back provincially-supported subways, region-wide fare integration or any other crucial initiative that doesn't gel with their parochial plans. It makes no more sense than allowing them to design their own highways regardless of whether they hook up with the 400-series or other regional roads.

Can't agree more. The economy doesn't end at Steeles. The environment doesn't end at Steeles. Society doesn't end at Steeles. We cannot expect the passive population increase over the next 25 years to be completely accommodated within the 416, and we will need a regional plan to deal with regional growth.

 

[kEiThZ]

I for one completely agree with the mayor (I never thought I'd ever say that!). Why should any Toronto ratepayer suffer poor service so that the Yonge line can serve another community? Despite Disparishun's back of the envelope calculation, it is still fairly obvious that the bulk of funding for the TTC comes from the 416. That 15% claim is rather ingenious. You cannot ignore the business ratepayers nor the fact that Toronto generates far more for the provincial and federal coffers then it gets back in support for the TTC.

I agree that the extensions into York region are needed. But they should not come at the expense of the primary customer of the TTC: the 416 resident. If the politicians want to get photo ops to help the win seats in York region, let them pay up and support the TTC in its quest to maintain a decent quality of service for those of us who pay taxes south of Steeles.

If the province had any interest in actually moving beyond playing politics with transit, they would be promoting subway construction within the 416 first before building out the network. Where's the cash for the DRL? Till they are sincere in supporting Toronto, I say the mayor is well within his rights to play hardball.

 

[allabootmatt]

Where's the cash for the DRL? Till .

Well, by not even asking for it, our current mayor has ensured that it won't appear.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Why are we extending subway lines at $300-350 million per km to suburban low density areas like Vaughan Corporate Centre (which has nothing but big box stores) and Richmond Hill Centre,.... when Toronto is struggling to find funding for LRT at about $40 million per km to service much higher density and much more urban areas within Toronto???? Shouldn't it be the other way around??? Doesn't Eglinton deserve a subway line way more than Vaughan Costco Centre and Richmond Hill Centre?

Well, if you want to voice your opinion,... here's your chance to do it in person! If you still have more questions than answers, you might want to check this out:


Yonge Subway Extension

The City and TTC are partners with The Regional Municipality of York on a study of the Yonge subway extension from Finch Station to Richmond Hill Centre (at Yonge Street and Highway 7).

Conceptual and Functional Planning studies have provided an evaluation of alignment alternatives, station locations and associated facilities in consultation with public and government stakeholders to develop a technically feasible solution, including preliminary construction methods. The project will also include planned improvements to address current service levels and existing capacity.

The project is now in the final phases of the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP). The Notice of Commencement was issued on October 3, 2008. City Council will consider a report on the project at its meeting on January 27/28, 2009.

Upcoming Public Consultation Meeting:

Tuesday, January 20, 2009
Open House: 5:00 - 7:00 pm
Presentation: 7:00 - 8:30 pm

Multi-Purpose Room
North Toronto Memorial Community Centre*
200 Eglinton Avenue West
Toronto, Ontario M4R 1A7

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/yongesubway/index.htm