Transit City Plan

[Paleo]

2km to a station, 2km from a station to work, 2km back to a station from work, and 2km home. Very very few people will put in over an hour on foot every day for their commute.

Yeah it's easy to say it's "only" 20 minutes but that means 40 minutes per day of walking and 200 minutes per week. That's almost 3 1/2 hours per week spent walking to and from a stop and you're not even guaranteed nice weather.

Yeah but the speed will get people out of their cars!

i am pro big spacing and i think anything over 850m is probably to much.

The speed freaks will say that's only an average of 425m maximum walk but that's only assuming you live directly on the street which is obviously not going to be true for most people.

 

[nfitz]

Average walking speed is 80m per minute, so 500m takes a little more than 6 minutes.

For the population as a whole perhaps, including the elderly. 75 m/min is typical for pensioners, but if you remove them from the population it's 90 m/min. If you do it every day, you'd be up to 100 m/min pretty quickly. I just checked the route I do, uphill, to the subway station. Typically it takes 11 minutes door to door, normally having to pause at 2 intersections. Google reports the length is 1,100 metres. I don't walk slowly, but frequently people blow right past me walking. I probably do about 105-110 m/min uphill.

If you want to be conservative, use 90 m/min.

Personally I found 1.1 km to the subway is a bit far to walk twice every day. Typically I'd walk about 1/3 of the way and try and catch a bus (and not see it coming, and start walking when it goes right past me ...). Though it was another 900 metre walk at the other end too ... but I was in great shape! 500 metres seems just about right. Looking in my neighbourhood, it's 500 metres to one bus, and it always seems fine. And it's 750 metres to another bus, and that always seems a bit far.

And it all changes completely if my 4-year old is with me. Then 150 metres to the streetcar seems too far some days (though other days I have to jog to keep up ...). However with her, my transit trips change dramatically, as suddenly I am minimizing walking distance instead of minimizing time.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

That's broken down very clearly in a May 19, 2010 Metrolinx presentation - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20100519/Five_in_Ten_Board_web.pdf

Note that in the detailed cash flows on page 25 and 26 they are in escalated (year of spending) dollars rather than 2010 dollars, so the $8.15 billion 2010 dollars becomes $12.7 billion by the time you've spent the last of it 20 years later.

nfitz how do access all these PDFs? I can't find them on the metrolinx site. And does metrolinx have a PDF of the Transit City 1.0 Miller proposed?

 

[BurlOak]

That's broken down very clearly in a May 19, 2010 Metrolinx presentation - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20100519/Five_in_Ten_Board_web.pdf

Note that in the detailed cash flows on page 25 and 26 they are in escalated (year of spending) dollars rather than 2010 dollars, so the $8.15 billion 2010 dollars becomes $12.7 billion by the time you've spent the last of it 20 years later.

Great source. I pulled out the main figure with costs and added the phase 1 projects. Do we know the costs of the other lines (Don Mills, Jane, Scarborough/Morningside, Waterfront West and BRT routes) or have they not been planned enough to have cost estimates. There is also the Richmond Hill extension and DRL. It would be nice to have all in consistant dollars.

 

[nfitz]

nfitz how do access all these PDFs? I can't find them on the metrolinx site. And does metrolinx have a PDF of the Transit City 1.0 Miller proposed?

They are buried in the meeting agendas - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/boardandexecutive/board_meetings.aspx.

5 in 10 is in May 2010 - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/agendas/agendas_2010_05_19.aspx

The 2009 fully funded version can be found in http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...ramework_Report-C-MX_Big5Project_Profiles.pdf from July 2009.

The original Transit City stuff is buried deep on the TTC and city websites where people don't quickly notice it.

Here's one link - http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pr...s/Transit_city/Transit_City_Details/index.jsp

All of the board reports are on the TTC website, so you can dig for it. Their search tool works fairly well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They are buried in the meeting agendas - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/boardandexecutive/board_meetings.aspx.

5 in 10 is in May 2010 - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/agendas/agendas_2010_05_19.aspx

The 2009 fully funded version can be found in http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...ramework_Report-C-MX_Big5Project_Profiles.pdf from July 2009.

The original Transit City stuff is buried deep on the TTC and city websites where people don't quickly notice it.

Here's one link - http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pr...s/Transit_city/Transit_City_Details/index.jsp

All of the board reports are on the TTC website, so you can dig for it. Their search tool works fairly well.

Thank You!

 

[MetroMan]

With Transit City now approved by City Council, the effort needs to move on to selling LRTs to Torontonians. I've never seen so many ignorant comments on my Facebook feed. I've spent the day today correcting myths and trying to educate my friends and their friends. David Miller's biggest failure was not selling Transit City to Torontonians. He was busy getting the Province to pay for it but with Torontonians behind it, Ford might never have been elected, and he surely would not have been able to illegally cancel it for a year.

CodeRedTO has a good place to start with these posters: http://coderedto.com/?page_id=48

I had to use this one a lot today to combat the comments that "World class cities build subways!!1!"

 

[Solid Snake]

With Transit City now approved by City Council, the effort needs to move on to selling LRTs to Torontonians. I've never seen so many ignorant comments on my Facebook feed. I've spent the day today correcting myths and trying to educate my friends and their friends. David Miller's biggest failure was not selling Transit City to Torontonians. He was busy getting the Province to pay for it but with Torontonians behind it, Ford might never have been elected, and he surely would not have been able to illegally cancel it for a year.

CodeRedTO has a good place to start with these posters: http://coderedto.com/?page_id=48

I personally would have preferred Eglinton LRT as a full subway. I think if the line is elevated it would work great and I more than support it.

My problem is at grade. Not because it doesn't work. I've been to many European cities with LRT and it does work great and in some cases at great speed with great efficiency.

Can it work in Toronto? Sure
Can the TTC run it like in Europe? I don't beleive so. If Metrolinx give the line to another contractor to operate it then, I'll believe that it can work in Toronto but selling me TTC staff operating the line is a waste of time. We all know we'll get that one nonchalant TTC driver who just won't care that people are in an hurry and just drive the damn thing like he's driving a toys.

I think why people make the comparison to ST.Clair is because of the way TTC personnel operates it. The way it's now built and I use it every week of peak hours and at peak hours, I shouldn't see 5 streetcars bunching at Bathurst and if I miss them, being left standing for 25 minutes for the next one.

I'll gladly support at grade for Eglinton if it's run by someone else than the TTC

 

[11th]

I had to use this one a lot today to combat the comments that "World class cities build subways!!1!"
http://coderedto.woot.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/LRT-Paris.png

More proper would be "World class cities built subways!!1!" Nothing wrong with LRT really, it's just the city needs just as much to build up its grade-seperated network.

 

[Paleo]

I personally would have preferred Eglinton LRT as a full subway. I think if the line is elevated it would work great and I more than support it.

My problem is at grade. Not because it doesn't work. I've been to many European cities with LRT and it does work great and in some cases at great speed with great efficiency.

Can it work in Toronto? Sure
Can the TTC run it like in Europe? I don't beleive so. If Metrolinx give the line to another contractor to operate it then, I'll believe that it can work in Toronto but selling me TTC staff operating the line is a waste of time. We all know we'll get that one nonchalant TTC driver who just won't care that people are in an hurry and just drive the damn thing like he's driving a toys.

I think why people make the comparison to ST.Clair is because of the way TTC personnel operates it. The way it's now built and I use it every week of peak hours and at peak hours, I shouldn't see 5 streetcars bunching at Bathurst and if I miss them, being left standing for 25 minutes for the next one.

I'll gladly support at grade for Eglinton if it's run by someone else than the TTC

You're just a demagogue.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I personally would have preferred Eglinton LRT as a full subway. I think if the line is elevated it would work great and I more than support it.

My problem is at grade. Not because it doesn't work. I've been to many European cities with LRT and it does work great and in some cases at great speed with great efficiency.

Can it work in Toronto? Sure
Can the TTC run it like in Europe? I don't beleive so. If Metrolinx give the line to another contractor to operate it then, I'll believe that it can work in Toronto but selling me TTC staff operating the line is a waste of time. We all know we'll get that one nonchalant TTC driver who just won't care that people are in an hurry and just drive the damn thing like he's driving a toys.

I think why people make the comparison to ST.Clair is because of the way TTC personnel operates it. The way it's now built and I use it every week of peak hours and at peak hours, I shouldn't see 5 streetcars bunching at Bathurst and if I miss them, being left standing for 25 minutes for the next one.

I'll gladly support at grade for Eglinton if it's run by someone else than the TTC

Spending an extra $2 billion to avoid dealing with a management problem is ridiculous. Just fix the management problem.

 

[Solid Snake]

You're just a demagogue.

Are you for real??? I was very conservative by say "a driver" and not "a lot of them". Are you saying that St. Clair is run efficiently and when they bunch up " s*it happens???

Seriously???
TTC is poorly run and poorly managed. Even Montreal run their network more efficiently than Toronto
Are you going to argue that?
http://www.stm.info/english/info/comm-10/a-co101005b.htm

The way they collect fares is from the 21st century
TTC will be there 2015 (BECAUSE THE PROVINCE MADE THEM DO IT)

 

[MetroMan]

I found a few talking points to help get critics' attention long enough to get them listen to the facts and think with reason:

- No more buses on Eglinton! No more buses on Finch!
- Above ground transit will let you travel in daylight, use your smart phone.
- Rapid Transit to the airport (eventually)

I'm trying to come up with other easy to comprehend talking points like these. Explaining technical aspects of LRT is no use if who you're talking to isn't willing to understand what you're saying. If you can find tangible benefits that they can understand instantly, they're willing to listen to more.

 

[Solid Snake]

Spending an extra $2 billion to avoid dealing with a management problem is ridiculous. Just fix the management problem.

council will never fire Stinz who will never fire Webster.
No need to spend an extra 2 billions. Have someone else operate the crosstown other than TTC

 

[andrewpmk]

With Transit City now approved by City Council, the effort needs to move on to selling LRTs to Torontonians. I've never seen so many ignorant comments on my Facebook feed. I've spent the day today correcting myths and trying to educate my friends and their friends. David Miller's biggest failure was not selling Transit City to Torontonians. He was busy getting the Province to pay for it but with Torontonians behind it, Ford might never have been elected, and he surely would not have been able to illegally cancel it for a year.

This ignores the following facts:
- Tram T3 is slow, it takes 26 minutes to get from end according to the trip planner. This is a slightly longer distance than and only marginally faster than the St. Clair streetcar.
- Tram T3 runs parallel to the Boulevard Périphérique which is very busy and congested.
- An abandoned rail line (Petite Ceinture) runs parallel to Tram T3, it was proposed to use this rail line for the tram which would have been faster, and not removed any lanes of traffic, but this option was not pursued.
- Paris is also planning a massive subway expansion called "Grand Paris". This will comprise a very costly circular subway line running outside the first ring road. This will help reduce traffic congestion on the 2nd ring road (A86) which this subway will run roughly parallel to. Numerous other subway projects are planned including an extension of line 14 north and south, extension of RER E and extension of numerous other Metro lines into the inner suburbs. Although Paris is building a number of tram projects in the suburbs they understand that building low capacity tram lines alone will not solve Paris' severe traffic problems
- The Sheppard subway is NOT a white elephant, this is a myth. The only reason it is underused is because it is very short, so most people drive because few people want to transfer from bus to subway to bus to another bus to get across the city. Creating a streetcar to subway transfer at Don Mills will ensure low ridership due to the transfer. Not very many people working in North York Centre use it. Highway 401 carries almost an order of magnitude cars than the subway carries people, and there are are always large traffic jams at rush hour in the North York Centre area caused by people who work in that area going on the 401.